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A nation of slaves

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Re: A nation of slaves

#11
funny i was talking about something similar with a friend last night. think about this:

in a lot of professions it's common to study about up to 10 years before you start working. that's after 12-13 years of school(unless you're a professional athlete)

you study for a quarter century. think about it. a quarter of a century. that's the height of your youth. then you're allowed to work for 40 years so you can "enjoy" your retirement(provided you still get any retirement at that time).

that's by the way the time when you have pain all over your body, wake up at 4 am and go to bed at 9.

who's winning here? who are we kidding?

Re: A nation of slaves

#12
post #6
post #4

> Workers in Germany average a little over 35 hours a week, compared to the 42 hours worked in the UK. Flat out wrong as per the source cited. The difference is only 0.7 hours, both for full time employees and for all employees (the numbers above mix the two). > German law guarantees 30 working days of vacation per year (and I am told medical leave for attending a spa resort on top of that). Nope, it's 29 days on ave…

Thank you for clarifying. Too often North Americans state "it's like this in Europe", without researching what the actual facts are like. I have Uncles who are still quoting facts that are 30 years old and may never have been accurate to begin with ;)

[deleted]

Re: A nation of slaves

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income would be just a step up to the ultimate goal of Star Trek style economy. I guess that having basic income would help cut on those 'bullshit jobs' that don't actually benefit anyone and are just a net negative for the society.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

Many positions in the public administration fit the pattern.

Re: A nation of slaves

#14
One of the biggest views I see in my parents and grandparents: work provides purpose and dignity, and without work, you have no purpose, and therefore, you are a failure. This is really hard to respond to, especially with people who have spent 50 years working with this mindset, because they feel "invalidated" or "worthless" if their life's worth isn't measured by their work output.

I don't think that's necessarily a "bad" world view to have, especially if it pushes you to provide some social good that you wouldn't if you thought it was OK to be lazy. But I think it's harmful to impose that view on others. If you have no choice but to work or be discarded, then, when the value you can provide via work is less than that required to maintain your life, you have no choice but to attempt to indenture yourself. And failing that, you're truly, completely fucked. The purpose of entitlements ought to be (though currently aren't) to provide reassurance against a requirement to sell yourself to survive. And I truly believe, if we don't correct this failing of entitlements, then we will see mass indentured servitude (though it won't be called that), in developed countries, in my lifetime, of citizens of said country. Currently, we already see mass indentured servitude, but we say it's not that big a deal because

[1] The indentured are immigrants

[2] The indentured are in un-developed countries

[3] The indentured are "ghetto", "whore", or "gangster", which is seen as pretty equivalent to [2]

Re: A nation of slaves

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income would be just a step up to the ultimate goal of Star Trek style economy. I guess that having basic income would help cut on those 'bullshit jobs' that don't actually benefit anyone and are just a net negative for the society.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

From the article, those are jobs that "have no benefit for person working", and "have no benefit for the rest of the society". Why we do work them? Because they benefit the small group that is powerful enough to force society to do net negative thing.

Re: A nation of slaves

#16
> Why should we not divert some of our growth into growing our leisure time, rather than growing our physical wealth?

Because not everyone was created equal. Some professions are completely worthless (e.g. ad creators) and add nothing net to the society. Others, e.g. doctors, are so valuable, and so few people can do them, that they simply can't afford to work less (educating more doctors so that they can work fewer hours is not an answer - I'm not a doctor, but I imagine it takes a relatively fixed amount of hours of training to actually "become a doctor" (after finishing your education), so if doctors worked less, they would be worse doctors). The social contract then dictates that everyone must work, since doctors have to work.

Solution: automate medicine, energy, food.

Re: A nation of slaves

#17

An unconditional basic income[1] would speed up a paradigm shift from the current "work or starve" society. Maybe our grandchildren will look back to this time and make funny jokes about digging and filling holes... [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

Basic income mean huge changes:

For example, salary may still be partially driven by necessary education / experience, but physical, tiresome or stressfull works would requireask for way higher salaries (because you get up at 4AM to collect garbage when you have no other choice, or when you think it really is worth it, and those jobs would still be necessary)

The same way, some companies will have huge problems filling the ranks (let's say: food industry, waiter, marts cashiers (or the people filling the mart at night), ...

But education industry (and universities) would have to change their methods, because nowadays peoples are willing to commit 100,000's of $ to get a well paying job, this incentive would be gone, the better paying one being the physical labor, with low education requirement.

I also wonder if people would go with their lives the same way they do now. I, for one, would get one of those hard, high-paying job straight out of high school for a few year, enough to buy a house and save a bit, then go to university (or self-studying with internet classes, choosing some classes in common with friends) and study whatever I found get my interest.

TL;DR: I'm all for Basic Income, mainly because I don't see any long-terme viable alterative, and also because the changes it would bring to society would be really interesting to study.

Re: A nation of slaves

#18

This is a stressful topic that gets overwhelming quickly. Things are shifting but it's a slow shift and one that is going to be extremely painful before it gets better. Some interesting work going on with worker coops, parecon, post-scarcity economics, etc... As one of the linked comments noted "Looks like we've built higher-phase communism accidentally. Ooops." The Keynes article he briefly touches on is fantastic h…

Not needing everyone to work doesn't necessarily mean we're post-scarcity, which means someone has to decide how to allocate scarce resources, in coordination with the people or companies that run and maintain the mostly-automated systems, and that's where the extreme pain shows up.

Re: A nation of slaves

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income would be just a step up to the ultimate goal of Star Trek style economy. I guess that having basic income would help cut on those 'bullshit jobs' that don't actually benefit anyone and are just a net negative for the society.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

Not the author, but there are undoubtedly plenty of stimulus jobs created by the government that could be cut.

Smart parking meters (that accept credit cards, and that let you reup time with your phone) for example, could dramatically adjust the number of positions available for meter maids / parking enforcement officers.

USPS is probably going to have to shift at some point to... something different.

The federal government spends $25 billion maintaining vacant properties, and owns more than 50,000 vacant homes. That probably doesn't equate to job elimination, but there's got to be some kind of opportunity there.

Toll booths for toll roads have got to be on the way out, right? I mean, not saying EZ Pass is the best, or most ubiquitous, but we've got speed cameras that map to DMV databases such that if I run a toll, I already get a bill in the mail -- add a new question at the DMV for 'email address' and stop sending paper bills and you've got a business model.

Re: A nation of slaves

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income would be just a step up to the ultimate goal of Star Trek style economy. I guess that having basic income would help cut on those 'bullshit jobs' that don't actually benefit anyone and are just a net negative for the society.

What are these bullshit jobs? If cutting them has no effect then there is a profit to be had.

See Q5 of http://www.jonathanlynn.com/tv/yes_minister_series/yes_minis...

A hospital with no nurses, doctors or patients only administrative staff.

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