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Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

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Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#151

Post by Mz »

larrys wrote: post #150
larrys wrote: post #26

"she has 16 hours of gymnastics practice every week, which markedly improves the report from school and now she's in love with it so I can't talk her out of it. I've tried. So spring break would be ideal." This is going to sound harsh. So, essentially even though you have an available resource (FIRST) since your daughter would rather take gymnastics you are then going to push off this responsibility to a complete str…

Edit: In retrospect this is probably what seems to have made people upset (from the comments below) "Gymnastics, nice, leads to ?" That said I'm appreciative for the other perspectives. I didn't mean to imply that there was no value in sports (although for sure that is what my sentence seems to say). What I meant is that I thought the value of the other program (FIRST) was more valuable in terms of setting the child…

I suspect it was downvoted for a lot of reasons. For example: What on earth is your problem with him asking this? So maybe you don't want to give time to a 12 yo girl. Does that mean others will not? There's just a lot of arrogance there. (and I could think of others, but I am honestly not trying to attack you, just give some feedback as to why this likely got downvoted)

But since you asked: I am female and did gymnastics as a kid. What has it led to? It has led to someone who knows how to fall without ending up in the ER. I have a serious medical condition which sometimes leaves me neurologically impaired. I sometimes fall down under circumstances where I really should be left bloody and with broken bones and the like. I am usually left with a few bruises and strains. That a) is worth big bucks in terms of money not spent on major medical care and b) priceless because god knows I have suffered enough from my medical condition, I don't need to be in the effin ER every time I turn around because I stupidly feel down. I have enough pain and physical limitations without it being constantly compounded by more scars and the like.

Gymnastics training is not just some frivolous indulgence.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#152

Post by [deleted] »

danielweber wrote: post #114
dang wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is also out of line. Two wrongs do not make a right, and personal attacks are absolutely unwelcome on Hacker News. It doesn't matter how provocative the other person was being. When you see something provocative on HN, please reflect before responding. Fighting poison with poison makes things worse. Please either add comments that make things better, or no comments. When responding to a toxic comment, re…

"Please either add comments that make things better, or no comments." I wrote this on a sticky note and put it on my monitor. It will be my mantra for the next few days.

[deleted]

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#153

Post by thelibrarian »

JohnHaugeland wrote: post #142
king_jester wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe that choosing to limit one's role models by gender is a problem. No one is talking about limiting to one kind of role model. Indeed, since women in STEM are not as represented as men, it may be limiting to not allow a student to seek out a role model who is a woman as they may never encounter one by happenstance. Having a role model you identify with, esp. with a trait that is a minority in some group, is…

I wish you would stop saying "nobody is saying (the thing everyone is actually literally saying)". Yes, the post saying "I need a woman for a role mode" is limiting one's role models by gender.

No it is not. It is a woman for a rolemodel, not a woman for my one and only and forever rolemodel.

Having a woman for a rolemodel does not exclude also having a man as a rolemodel.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#154

Post by larrys »

dang wrote: post #52
wonkus wrote: post #19

You sound sexist. Are you sexist? Why female engineers? Are male engineers not up to the challenge of instructing your offspring?

Thanks to the fair-minded users of Hacker News for downvoting this bullshit. When I encounter a comment like this, it's a relief to discover that the community immune system already rejected it. When you see a comment that is truly toxic for HN, flag it by clicking "link" to go to the item page and then "flag" at the top. Edit: Since I know some people have concerns about unpopular opinions being suppressed, perhaps…

I think it might be a good idea when you make your mod comments to include the fact that you are the mod.

I wouldn't assume that people know that. In fact if I hadn't read that particular post on that day I wouldn't know that.

I wouldn't also assume that any particular user will even click on your profile (which is another way of saying "don't just put it there").

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#155

Post by belorn »

GuiA wrote: post #96
JohnHaugeland wrote: post #90

Why do you need a woman? I don't understand why we all talk about the gender problem in engineering, then continue it by isolating female students from male teachers. There is no isolation between male students and female teachers, or same gender students and teachers. If we want to move towards equality, why carefully structure inequality in?

Because chances are, she's not isolated from male teachers, and even if she is, the need to offer a relatable role model is more important to inspire and motivate her than the need to not isolate her from male teachers. Over the past 8 years, I've taught programming to people from ages 6 to 50, of all genders and cultural backgrounds. Female students have generally related more to my female colleagues, just like blac…

By adding such discrimination in ones search for role models, one deprive children a chance to meet any of the potential Richard Feynmans, Carl Sagans and Randy Pauschs that exists here in the HN community.

All for what? a social experiment to fight biases with "positive discrimination"? The hope removing half of every possible role model is worth getting a female role model over a male role model?

In the end its the parent that decide and it might be worth if there is already plenty of male role models, so long one is aware of the costs.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#156

Post by gexla »

She wants to be an engineer, let her pick out something to tinker with. Anything really. It doesn't have to be code. Look through maker kits that you can buy online. Or if there is a physical store you can get to, that might be even better.

Personally, I learned how to do web programming because I had something in mind that I wanted to build. I learned while building that thing. If I had to go through a book, course or tutorial first, I would have never been interested. I also wouldn't ever be inspired by going to work with someone unless that person is Elon Musk.

Your daughter might be the same. Let her interest guide her. I remember all the things I said I wanted to be when I was a kid. It was all just kid talk. I don't think I really ever cared to be any of those things.

Or maybe just leave her be. 16 hours of gymnastics plus school is a lot. Maybe she simply doesn't have time for anything else. Don't force it.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#157

Post by JohnHaugeland »

thelibrarian wrote: post #153
JohnHaugeland wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish you would stop saying "nobody is saying (the thing everyone is actually literally saying)". Yes, the post saying "I need a woman for a role mode" is limiting one's role models by gender.

No it is not. It is a woman for a rolemodel, not a woman for my one and only and forever rolemodel. Having a woman for a rolemodel does not exclude also having a man as a rolemodel.

A limitation is still a limitation even if it isn't universal.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#158

Post by britta »

niels_olson wrote: post #147
dmpayton wrote: post #84

Do you know about PythonSD? I'm sure they could get you in touch with a female engineer. http://pythonsd.org/ (I used to work at Cuker, and all the PythonSD guys are pretty great.)

I do now! I'll see what I can do.

There is also a PyLadies meetup group in San Diego: http://www.meetup.com/sd-pyladies/ - I know one of the organizers and she's great.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#159

Post by JohnHaugeland »

niels_olson wrote: post #127
JohnHaugeland wrote: post #90

Why do you need a woman? I don't understand why we all talk about the gender problem in engineering, then continue it by isolating female students from male teachers. There is no isolation between male students and female teachers, or same gender students and teachers. If we want to move towards equality, why carefully structure inequality in?

> Why do you need a woman? I don't. I don't need french onion soup either, but it's sure a nice treat on occasion. > isolating female students from male teachers Her current math teacher is male, her science teacher is a woman and former pilot of helicopter gunships. I'm her dad, and I help her with her math and science at home. One of our good friends in the neighborhood is a PhD biostatistician who is the CEO of he…

(I apologize if I currently seem defensive; I'm getting pretty massively downvoted for trying to understand you, by people who are telling me you mean something very different than what you seem to be saying; I'm glad you chose to respond. Thank you.)

.

"But why ask for what's common?"

I didn't say ask for what's common. I asked why to ask for something uncommon. They're quite different and they aren't the range of possibilities. Another possibility entirely is to just not limit it.

When talking about mentors, "because a mentorship is a many year relationship that can have a significant impact on a person's life, and I'm not sure why you would only search half the space available to you for the best person for the job."

.

"Because equality is often an unstable equilibrium."

Not in the case of human gender.

.

"So exerting a force opposed to the instantaneous natural tendency may be the right response at any given time."

I don't see any instantaneous natural tendency to select for male either, and I'm still looking for a supporting cause for that "may be" which isn't a vague reference to an unstable equilibrium.

I'm not even sure what equilibrium you might mean, unless you mean how many people are in each gender, and expect that to change.

.

"In fact, the system may have to be permanently pre-stressed to change from unstable to stable."

As that stress has been applied, beginning in the late 1970s, the division in gender in technical roles has increased dramatically. Indeed, it appears that since women's mentorship in tech has been steered towards other women, the number of women in tech has dropped dramatically.

It's important to take a look at the data before taking a position on hypotheticals, in case the data suggests exactly the opposite of what the suspicion suggests.

How would you respond if it turned out that giving a child a mentor of the opposite role, meaning they were used to a broader range of gender roles than otherwise, increased diversification? Would that change your mind about the right thing to do?

.

Lastly (and sorry it's out of order, but it's to me the dividing point):

"So "female engineer in San Diego" is actually a tractable problem within my social circle."

It's not clear to me what makes this the problem to solve, yet.

I'm not arguing with you, or saying you're wrong; I don't understand the reaction I'm getting.

I'm just trying to understand why you are cutting away the vast majority of the available mentors.

If there are ninety Xs and ten Ys available, and if Xs and Ys are fundamentally equal quality, but if both groups have individual variation, then it is strongly statistically expected that the best available individual is an X, because of the variation of individuals and the larger sampling pool.

People don't get several mentors.

I don't understand why the choice is in any terms other than finding the single best available individual.

I just want to understand the data driving your choices. I'm not arguing.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#160

Post by dang »

d0m wrote: post #144
dang wrote: post #94

Hi Niels! If you end up finding something interesting for your daughter, I think HN would love to hear about it. I know I would. Consider this an invitation for her to write something about it and post it here and/or for you to write something about it and post it here. I have to say I envied you for a moment. My daughter once enjoyed an afternoon with me at the REPL, but then politely made it clear that we wouldn't…

Did you show cool visual stuff like in SICP where you could make images and move them around? Or animate a story of some kind? I'm asking because my younger cousin definitely enjoyed looking and playing with a Mario-like game where we would loop-back and have fun within the REPL. However, I don't think she would have enjoyed mathematical additions or learning about while loop for the fun of learning-about-while-loopi…

No, I did a much shoddier job. I should have strategized it better.
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