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Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

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Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what I was thinking. Its quite insulting to suggest that girls are so myopic they can't possibly be inspired unless they meet someone of the same gender. For the record, I'm a female engineer who moved to the USA from Ghana when I was a smaller. I can't stand this ridiculous patronizing attitude there is towards female engineers, as if we need "extra help" or something. Even worse are the feminists creating u…

> I can't stand this ridiculous patronizing attitude there is towards female engineers, as if we need "extra help" or something. Even worse are the feminists creating us-vs-them politicization of the issue. Nobody is saying women engineers need extra help. Wanting to meet someone who you identify with as a woman in STEM is not necessarily easy and it is totally legitimate to seek someone out. As for feminists and fem…

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Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a man and I modelled my professional self on a woman, so I have some difficulty with this. I believe that choosing to limit one's role models by gender is a problem.

> I believe that choosing to limit one's role models by gender is a problem. No one is talking about limiting to one kind of role model. Indeed, since women in STEM are not as represented as men, it may be limiting to not allow a student to seek out a role model who is a woman as they may never encounter one by happenstance. Having a role model you identify with, esp. with a trait that is a minority in some group, is…

I wish you would stop saying "nobody is saying (the thing everyone is actually literally saying)".

Yes, the post saying "I need a woman for a role mode" is limiting one's role models by gender.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By saying "I think young people should have access to everyone, not just people demographically like them," you seem to have heard "I think young women should only have access to people unlike them." > A call for inclusion has been misrepresented as a call for exclusion. In terms of gender, cisgender men by far the norm, they have no problem being represented. Women in general are not as well represented, someone l…

I feel like I can't reply because I'm being mass downvoted for saying "I think women should have access to everybody" and being told that that makes me a bad person. "Nobody is arguing that role models should be limited." The entire tree I'm responding to is.

I don't actually see where anyone says they should be limited until I read your comments assuming that. The frustrating bit is that you're basically on the same page as your downvoters if your ultimate message is "everyone should have access to everyone".

The father wants to make sure his daughter gets access to both male and female role models at which point she can choose one or two or all or none of them if she wants - that is the complete opposite of _limiting_ role models. People replying to you think it's okay for him to seek out a female engineer specifically because if he doesn't try, she's ending up with a male role model (not a bad thing) out of a pool of only men right now (the bad thing). He's not saying "my daughter will ONLY have female role models or else" or "men can't be role models for my daughter" or "the woman I find from this Ask HN must be my daughter's role model". He's also not asking for male role models because he thinks they make bad role models for women, rather that they're very common as half the men in his social circle can act as one for his daughter. I would also fully expect him and others to care just as much about finding a similar potential role model had he had a son instead of a daughter.

Personally, most of my role models were male, but it would have been nice to encounter more women along the way. I have different conversations with other women than I do with men that aren't my husband in the tech industry. It's also a coping mechanism when I deal with sexism that men don't fully understand because they're not used to or aware of it. (I recognize that the complete opposite happens in some fields and I don't approve of any of the sexism, I just don't see what's wrong with doing what you can and taking advantage of what you can if you need to.)

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#144
post #94

Hi Niels! If you end up finding something interesting for your daughter, I think HN would love to hear about it. I know I would. Consider this an invitation for her to write something about it and post it here and/or for you to write something about it and post it here. I have to say I envied you for a moment. My daughter once enjoyed an afternoon with me at the REPL, but then politely made it clear that we wouldn't…

Did you show cool visual stuff like in SICP where you could make images and move them around? Or animate a story of some kind?

I'm asking because my younger cousin definitely enjoyed looking and playing with a Mario-like game where we would loop-back and have fun within the REPL. However, I don't think she would have enjoyed mathematical additions or learning about while loop for the fun of learning-about-while-looping.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what I was thinking. Its quite insulting to suggest that girls are so myopic they can't possibly be inspired unless they meet someone of the same gender. For the record, I'm a female engineer who moved to the USA from Ghana when I was a smaller. I can't stand this ridiculous patronizing attitude there is towards female engineers, as if we need "extra help" or something. Even worse are the feminists creating u…

> I can't stand this ridiculous patronizing attitude there is towards female engineers, as if we need "extra help" or something. Even worse are the feminists creating us-vs-them politicization of the issue. Nobody is saying women engineers need extra help. Wanting to meet someone who you identify with as a woman in STEM is not necessarily easy and it is totally legitimate to seek someone out. As for feminists and fem…

> People can and do internalize messages

Thanks for this. That's why I said she could use some inspiration. And not all the messages come from men. Women and friends provide powerful messages as well.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#146

Why do you need a woman? I don't understand why we all talk about the gender problem in engineering, then continue it by isolating female students from male teachers. There is no isolation between male students and female teachers, or same gender students and teachers. If we want to move towards equality, why carefully structure inequality in?

In Monte Carlo, there is something called "stratified" or "biased" sampling. It's used to overcome the problem that if you are trying to sample a highly nonuniform probability distribution, a "fair" sampling based on the frequency distribution won't tell you about the tails unless you use a lot of samples.

Suppose that we are trying to sample a distribution that is, say, 90% male and 10% female. If we do that with a fair sampling, and take 5 samples, chances are that we will end up with no females in the sample. Someone observing the sampled distribution would draw the conclusion that there are no women in the population from which the samples are drawn.

The solution is to not sample fairly, because to do so results in oversampling the common cases and undersampling the rare cases. Instead, you construct your sample such that it samples the rare cases with an artificially higher probability. You of course needs to take this into account when interpreting the samples, but that's fine.

So for the topic at hand: if you want to expose someone to the widest possible range of viewpoints, sampling fairly is an inefficient thing to do. Instead, you need to split the samples into several strata, be they gender, cultural background, wealth, anything you can think of, and then make sure that all parts of those distributions are represented in your sample. Otherwise, with a limited number of samples, you'll never encounter the rare instances.

In other words, you need to "carefully structure inequality in", as you say.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#147

Do you know about PythonSD? I'm sure they could get you in touch with a female engineer. http://pythonsd.org/ (I used to work at Cuker, and all the PythonSD guys are pretty great.)

I do now! I'll see what I can do.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#148
post #62
post #26

"she has 16 hours of gymnastics practice every week, which markedly improves the report from school and now she's in love with it so I can't talk her out of it. I've tried. So spring break would be ideal." This is going to sound harsh. So, essentially even though you have an available resource (FIRST) since your daughter would rather take gymnastics you are then going to push off this responsibility to a complete str…

Justice Byron White played college football, got a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford, played in the NFL for Pittsburgh and Detroit, served in the Navy, built a private practice, and served on the Supreme Court for 31 years. Gymnastics leads to becoming a well-rounded person, which is a pre-requisite for the Harvards and Stanfords of the world, which leads to exceptional careers in medicine or technology. American culture…

"Justice Byron White played...."

He also drank milk. I mean there is no way you are seriously suggesting logic like this are you?

"Gymnastics leads to becoming a well-rounded person"

I agree that Harvard and Stanford will choose only exceptional people (that is ones without other connections or advantages etc.) However even without doing any research, I somehow feel that there are quite a few people at all the IVY league schools who don't participate in sports at all. And never have. I went to one and I never did any sports. And I knew plenty of people that never did any sports. And I know that there is no checklist that says "reject if no sports" like there might be "reject if a felon".

For that matter what makes participating in any sport (gymnastics or otherwise) a pre for being well rounded? What about handicapped people?

Lastly it's obvious that there are many schools other than Harvard, Stanford or the usual suspects that allow people to lead exceptional careers.

So the question becomes to what extent are you going to play the game in high school with extra activities to try to get into a "top" school vs. a "really good school"

Not only that but some people actually can't handle academics and sport participation.

Somehow I feel that since it is well understood that grades and sat's are quite important (and there are clear demarcation points on those values) for some students it might actually pay to not do any sport or spend time learning to program.

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I can't reply because I'm being mass downvoted for saying "I think women should have access to everybody" and being told that that makes me a bad person. "Nobody is arguing that role models should be limited." The entire tree I'm responding to is.

I don't actually see where anyone says they should be limited until I read your comments assuming that. The frustrating bit is that you're basically on the same page as your downvoters if your ultimate message is "everyone should have access to everyone". The father wants to make sure his daughter gets access to both male and female role models at which point she can choose one or two or all or none of them if she wa…

"The frustrating bit is that you're basically on the same page as your downvoters if your ultimate message is "everyone should have access to everyone".

I agree. :(

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"He's not saying "my daughter will ONLY have female role models or else"

Yeah, I didn't claim he was. What I actually said was "making this selection explicitly by a demographic feature that isn't germane is limiting." It doesn't have to be universal.

If you go to the store and say "I'm going to try a strawberry drink," that's limiting, even if it's only applied to that one store trip.

Everyone seems to be trying to stretch what I said into an infinitive I had no intent of, which isn't actually present in my speech, in order to argue with the infinitive.

It's simpler than that.

Kids don't get a plethora of mentors. I think it's problematic to screw up the first mentorship by adding a criterion that is unnecessary and not particularly productive.

I mean reduce it to absurdity. "I want to give my child access to four mentors, one each from the four elements of the Western Zodiac, to give them the chance to figure out which element they like best."

Except that's dramatically limiting - it constrains which sets of mentors can be made available. If you have Charlie, who's an Aries, you can't also have Dave, who's a Taurus, because they're both fire signs. (They probably aren't; I don't actually know astrology.)

And when you hook it on something we all explicitly don't care about, like astrology, then suddenly the problem becomes really obvious, because it isn't taboo to think it over. "Oh hey, I shouldn't be adding arbitrary constraints to what can be proferred, then observing the range of those constraints as if it's some form of diversification, because constraints are always a reduction against wild card."

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"He's also not asking for male role models because he thinks they make bad role models for women"

I wish people would stop making assumptions about the author's opinions then stuffing words into his mouth this way.

I asked that guy his opinion. Not everybody else reading the thread. You aren't mind readers and you don't know if this is what he meant.

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"I would also fully expect him and others to care just as much about finding a similar potential role model had he had a son instead of a daughter."

I have a hard time reading this, because it seems to me like you're saying you expect his son to be proferred male role models, in the same post as where you're talking about how he doesn't limit who's offered.

Again: I am a man, and I modelled my professional self on a woman. I think that to offer male children preferential access to male role models perpetuates the broken networking and disallows men to learn from women.

I don't understand why this is not obviously a problem.

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"Personally, most of my role models were male, but it would have been nice to encounter more women along the way."

And yet you want to make sure this girl gets childhood mentored by a woman.

I wonder if you're just taking this from the position that a person has several childhood mentors in their life?

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"It's also a coping mechanism when I deal with sexism that men don't fully understand because they're not used to or aware of it."

Which is another great reason that we shouldn't be hiding male mentors from having access to those vanishingly rare female students.

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"The father wants to make sure his daughter gets access to both male and female role models at which point she can choose one or two or all or none of them if she wants - that is the complete opposite of _limiting_ role models."

I don't know that I actually agree here.

If I had a boy, and I wanted to arrange for him one male and one female role model, and it turned out that the two best available were two women, I'd have limited him.

Unfortunately, despite that I'm trying to argue for inclusion and for helping female students, I'm about to be downvoted again :(

Re: Any female engineers in San Diego interested in showing my daughter their work?

#150
post #26

"she has 16 hours of gymnastics practice every week, which markedly improves the report from school and now she's in love with it so I can't talk her out of it. I've tried. So spring break would be ideal." This is going to sound harsh. So, essentially even though you have an available resource (FIRST) since your daughter would rather take gymnastics you are then going to push off this responsibility to a complete str…

Edit:

In retrospect this is probably what seems to have made people upset (from the comments below)

"Gymnastics, nice, leads to ?"

That said I'm appreciative for the other perspectives.

I didn't mean to imply that there was no value in sports (although for sure that is what my sentence seems to say). What I meant is that I thought the value of the other program (FIRST) was more valuable in terms of setting the child apart. That's strictly my opinion it's obvious that others see it differently. You only have so much time in a week you can't do everything and have to triage based on what you feel the best outcome is.

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