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OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

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331–340 of 410 posts

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking that marriage is by definition between a man and a woman is not the same as thinking there's anything wrong with being gay. You can't claim someone is oppressing someone's rights by participating in the public debate about what exactly those rights should be. I disagree with Eich, but I reserve my moral disapproval for those who seek to shame anyone holding an opinion different from that currently politicall…

People, also, used to define marriage as being between two people of the same race. Let us dispense of this tangent once and for all: Marriage is a civil right. It is the cornerstone of this civil rights movement, as it was to the last one, and the one before that, and all the ones that haven't happened yet. The cry "marriage for all" is not politically correct; we would like it to become politically correct -- what…

Sorry, but the whole race versus gay marriage thing has been done to death, and proven patently false.

Nobody is stopping gay people from being together. Nor, in many countries/states, are they stopped from claiming the same benefits (e.g. via civil unions).

This is simply about them redefining marriage to encompass any two humans, rather than just a man and a woman.

I'm not going to go into whether that's "right" or not - that's way off topic here, and is only going to descent to a flame war - this isn't the forum for that.

However, this is about redefining a word - marriage has traditionally been between a man and a woman, and to claim otherwise is blatant historical revisionism.

Tradition is not necessarily "right" though, so they're certainly within rights to claim they feel the word should be redefined.

Just like Eichs is within right to say no, marriage should be defined the same.

And Eichs was classy enough to keep it out of his work - by all reports, he's never discriminated against gay people, or had anything against them - he's simply got his own views of what "marriage" should mean.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#332
post #217
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't know Brendan, I don't know Brendan, nobody in previous threads comparing him to fucking racists or the Nazis knows Brendan. I know Brendan. I met him on a number of occasions while working at Mozilla and interacted with him on many more. I think the comparison to racism is completely valid. I don't think he's a bad guy (he was always quite cordial with me) but his actions caused harm to a large number of…

What actions did he take besides donating $1,000 to Prop 8?

It's his inactions that have also caused problems. Refusing to change his beliefs. Refusing to justify his unchanged beliefs. Refusing to explain why he did what he did and what outcomes he intended. Refusing to respond to anyone's valid criticisms and questions. Refusing to apologize, but instead issuing a cynical, verbally acrobatic non-apology apology, that backflips and dances around the burning issues. Refusing to step down after he's caused damage to the Mozilla project.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#333
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't Wikipedia. We're happy to learn, but we're not going to import. I notice that this is the second time you've challenged me with personally charged language. If you have more to say, email would be better. Edited for clarity.

> Edited for clarity. I prefer the original, overtly aggressive and unapologetically abusive version. At least with that we know where we stand.

The original was: "This isn't Wikipedia. We prefer to think for ourselves here". My meaning was that we prefer to find solutions that are appropriate for HN rather than copying what another site does. Since my original wording left room for misunderstanding, I changed it. (I do that all the time, incidentally; I am a compulsive, inveterate editor, and always have been.)

If that is what you call "unapologetically abusive", we have nothing further to discuss. I'm going to invest time answering users we have a hope of satisfying.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#334
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again: Believing that marriage can only be between a man and a woman, because marriage has a religious connotation to them, is not bigotry. It's a stupid fucking belief, and it leads to seperate but equal bullshit, but it's not homophobic on its own.

Except all marriages are civil marriages - and the government has to treat all equally. that is all. Your church, temple, or mosque can be as exclusionary and ignorant as they want to be. that's fine, and protected free speech. But the government shouldn't give rights to some and not all (inheritance, consent, tax breaks etc).

Well, no, that's the point.

There are civil unions, and there are marriages - and if it was simply about "rights" and "benefits", then people wouldn't give a c*ap which group they were in.

However, even though they have civil unions (in many countries/states), they also want to redefined marriage.

I'm not saying that's wrong or right - that's an argument I won't go into here.

However, to try to pretend that this is anything but redefining something is pretty deceptive.

Maybe they'll win, and we will redefine marriage. Who knows.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#335
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a little stronger than that, in my opinion. I think it would be like finding out if the CEO of Microsoft didn't want blacks to be able to get married. Would you expect blacks to continue using Windows? Imagine you were gay. Would you want to use Firefox and JavaScript? I'm a big fan of JS. I'm straight and it's somewhat distasteful to me now. If I were gay, I think that feeling would be very strong.

William Shockley held some opinions a lot of people would dislike. No one is ditching the transistor. Darwin thought blacks were quite inferior and not as evolved. No one is discounting the theory of evolution. It'd be like ditching XMLHttpRequest because someone at MS was racist - it's simply not going to happen.

I think it would be like blacks not using Windows because the CEO of Microsoft said that blacks should not be allowed to get married.

I believe users can boycott a product and start a movement and have a huge effect in today's world. It's happened before and I think it's possible it can happen again.

I think most people realize that it was socially acceptable for people to hold certain beliefs in another era and would not fault them for holding those beliefs.

If the car was invented by a homophobe, it's not like people would ditch it, given that cars are essential to many people and also given the time period the inventor lived in. But is Mozilla or javascript essential? Maybe. You could certainly be correct that it won't happen. But I can see it being replaced. I can see a group of people choosing alternatives.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Opposing gay marriage is a sign of bigotry and hate, by that fact alone. No, it is not. One can actually have empathy with gays and believe that marriage can only be between a man and a woman. I don't agree with those beliefs, but I'm speaking from experience that there are many people who believe that marriage has a very religious connotation. Can you please cite a single interaction in which Brendan has looked dow…

When he donated money to remove a law in order to deny gay people their human rights. You can't just slap "but it's my religionnnnn" on something and call it a day. It's like you haven't bothered to read the rhetoric that right-wing politicians used in the segregated South or apartheid-era South Africa.

Really, denied them their human rights?

I think you might be overblowing the horn just slightly there.

Sigh.

Nobody is being oppressed.

In most progressive countries, civil unions are available, which confer exactly the same benefits and rights as a traditional marriage.

In fact, in many countries, you don't even need to do that - simply having a de-facto relationship will be enough.

So basically, it's about a word - in this case "marriage", which has traditionally been between a man and a woman, they want to redefine it to include any two humans.

I'm not saying that tradition is "right" just because we've done it that way for thousands of years - maybe it's "right" that words should change over time.

However, to try to claim the moral high ground by making disingenuous comparisons to Apartheid is pretty disgusting for all those that actually suffered through Apartheid.

What next? Comparisons to the pogrums?

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps he believes that the state should remove all recognition of marriage... Just a heads-up, this is a strawman developed by anti-same-sex-marriage proponents to provide a possible (though not plausible) reason other than denying people their rights why someone might oppose same-sex marriage (and you also have to buy that someone who wanted to grant same-sex couples those legal right would vote/donate/campaign/…

I used the modifier "perhaps", which was followed by acknowledgment that we don't know his beliefs (because he won't talk about them except in person.) Brendan is (or was at the time of donation) ignorant, there's no sense in disputing that. I'm just tired of people labelling him as anti-gay, bigot, homophobe, etc.

Perhaps you're an apologist for bigots.

I know him. You're wrong. He's an unrepentant homophobic bigot.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely his (assumed) belief that marriage can only be between a man and a woman stems from ignorance and his religion instead of bigotry or hate. And while that doesn't negate the harm that his donation caused: please stop comparing him to racists. You don't know Brendan, I don't know Brendan, nobody in previous threads comparing him to fucking racists or the Nazis knows Brendan. It's disgusting, please stop. >S…

Please stop being an apologist for bigots. Racists and homophobes and misogynists and nazis are all cut from the same cloth, and they all support each other, so attacking the root cause of their hate is fighting them all. And asking people to stop being "unfair" to them is asking people to treat them all fairly, which they don't deserve, because they acted unfairly first. The Paradox of Tolerance is a resolved philos…

I'm sorry that you feel I'm being an apologist for bigots, but I have no evidence to suggest that Eich is himself a homophobe. We all know about the donation, obviously, but that in and of itself is not evidence of his "anti-gay" stance.

If your anecdote is true and he actually is homophobic, I'll be even more hurt. But I still believe that there's really no reason for Brendan, being the most qualified, to step down when he seems comitted to equality going forward. Regardless, what OkCupid is doing is unfair (especially considering factual inaccuracies in their message) to both Mozilla Co. and Mozilla Fnd. in addition to all of the contributors.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google says this about bigotry: "big·ot·ry ˈbigətrē/Submit noun 1. bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself." Gays who want to oppress anyone for not thinking like them are also being bigots by that definition. Marriage has been between a man and a woman throughout the history of humans. I think Gays should have legal equality. They can not usurp a word that has had such a…

Tell me more about this English word that "has had such a clear meaning throughout the core existence of humankind". Retreating to dictionary definitions does not make a point, nor does asserting that prejudice by an oppressive class against an oppressed class is the same as the converse.

>> Retreating to dictionary definitions does not make a point

Well, yea, actually, it made it quite clearly, hence my post.

>> nor does asserting that prejudice by an oppressive class against an oppressed class is the same as the converse.

Oppression is oppression, elegance and articulation do not change that. Your attempt to say that my belief and understanding of the meaning if a single word describing a single legal institution is oppression underestimates what I was stating originally; that we who believe and understand the meaning of the word marriage are being oppressed by a very vocal, sometimes very vocally belligerent and socially irreverent group in context minimally and notwithstanding.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#340
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>from ignorance and his religion instead of bigotry or hate I am not one of the fedora-tippers, and I have no problem with individual faith, but it's been my experience that organized religion (of any sort) tends to discourage critical thinking and encourage ignorance. A byproduct of this is prejudice which leads to the dark side. I don't believe you can quite so easily separate religion from discrimination.

Acts 8:26-40 Read it. I don't know how you conflate religion with racism. It is not the truth.

Explain that to the many religious people who used their religion to justify racism and misogony, as they now use their religion to justify homophobia. You can cherry pick and whitewash your religion however you choose, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a powerful weapon for racists and misogynists and bigots, and they use it against people they hate.

Of course maybe I'm misinterpreting you. If by "it is not the truth," you mean the religions that people use to justify their hate are not the truth, then I agree with you.

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