Live data from Hacker News

Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

thesurge.net

211–220 of 229 posts

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what people fear from Facebook. Selling out to Microsoft or Sony would have been "monetize by making awesome games". Selling out to Facebook means virtual reality ads will penetrate everywhere you walk.

Do you seriously believe this? Then there will be competitors without ads.

And therefore, Oculus Rift has "sold out".

We are now looking for more legitimate competitors, and are pissed off at the Oculus.

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case in point: Facebook games are Mafia Wars and Farmville... games that represent raking in tons of money by offering very poor (but addicting) gameplay. The core gamer audience is pissed off at Facebook as it is, and that is the audience Oculus Rift is aimed towards. If Oculus sold out to Valve, Sony, Microsoft... hell... maybe even EA or Activision... they wouldn't have nearly as bad of a reaction as with Facebook…

See this is why I like that Facebook acquired Oculus. VR shouldn't be the exclusive domain of hardcore gamers. I want the equivalent of Playstation Home in VR. And nobody can pull that off except Facebook.

Or you know... Sony. The maker of PlayStation Home and the Oculus competitor "Morpheus". Or Valve, the creator of Steam... one of the largest online video game social networks.

Or Second Life, who has a very agreeable model of virtual space and virtual goods.

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#213
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your premise is that something you need to put in front of your eyes to see, won't be in front of your eyes at some point imaginary point in the future, and it doesn't matter if they are blocking your face because 3d face scanners, for which people will use them approximately once, will also become so cheap that people won't mind buying them in some imaginary point in the future. Okay. Sure. I can't argue against…

I have many possible answers to your statements, such as an observation that we already have head-mounted displays that do not block faces, or that real-time 3d face scanning is a potential advancement, but you're such a depressingly cynical person to try and converse with, I don't know why I'd bother. Your statement about when you were six is unwittingly apt. Such a concern with "rules" rather than nuance and discou…

Sorry I didn't realize I was talking to somebody with a completely made up and fantastical worldview, where hard problems are instantly solvable with fairy dust and dream juice.

No wonder you feel like you can invent any future you wish whole cloth and in just a couple years, reality will bend to your will and products will appear on the market that bring your future to life at a price so cheap as to basically be commodities.

If thinking about how things work in the real world, identifying the problems and doing the hard grunt work to solve them is cynicism, I want some of what you're smoking. Because nothing happens as easy or as quick as you optimistically imply.

You've probably never brought a product to market, even one with zero R&D cost. Gone from idea to box on store shelves. It's hard. A few words of pithy advice and hard wishing don't cut it.

If it did we'd have hard-AI, FTL, jetpacks, and would live full-time in the metaverse from our isolation tanks on an orbital platform around Venus or Proxima Centauri fed only by our immersion in a pool of reconfigurable nanoparticle nutrients. We'd live lives as long as we care to in a post-monetary society.

We've been doing VR for the better part of 30 years and still barely understand the interaction models. I've used state-of-the-art haptic feedback systems intended for VR that are so new that there haven't even been articles written about them. They're the result of a hundred million dollars of nation state level R&D by teams of PhD researchers and they're still impossibly crude approximations of what real-life interaction feels like. The time-to-market on just this kind of device is expected to be 30 years at best. The expected cost in 2013 dollars when that happens is $150k-200k per limb.

Things have to be possible on the technology curve we're already on and have to respect physics. You can't waive your hands and insist that in your fantasy world it should just be possible. They have to be something that can be taken from nascent R&D to market at a cost consumers can actually buy. More importantly they have to be useful, non-fatiguing interfaces that don't take up half of somebody's living room. Most importantly, they have to be socially acceptable enough that the majority of the population won't feel weird participating.

Even the smallest of practical concerns, like will the headset smudge a woman's makeup can make or break something. Sweeping social change, where everybody on the planet suddenly stops what they've been doing for a lifetime (or in a larger context for thousands of years in their culture) and suddenly adapts to whatever fantasy product you've placed out are among the hardest things to push forward. Look at the near panic about somebody walking around with a near invisible screen on their face and a single low-resolution camera -- Google glass.

> such as an observation that we already have head-mounted displays that do not block faces

Like what, Glass? It also doesn't provide the necessary optics via physics to provide VR. If what you're talking about are two Glass-like displays, positioned like Glass, no matter the resolution or latency, you are no loner talking about VR and we're in a different discussion.

Here's a even did a mockup for you http://i.imgur.com/njToujz.jpg

Glass isn't even capable of AR, let alone stereoscopic VR. So let's shift the displays down a couple inches. Then what's the point? I may as well just be looking at a 3d monitor. This buys me nothing and doesn't buy me convenience. You won't be walking around with this gear on, there's no camera to shoot your face and nobody wants to talk around with a quad copter taking video all day. And then you're literally obscuring your face because the displays are literally in front of your eyes. Physics is a ruleset we can't wave our hands at and get around.

> or that real-time 3d face scanning is a potential advancement

There's only two possible interaction models for the kind of virtual communication, the glass one which is trivial to demonstrate isn't a good model and the fully VR model which then requires you to be modeled and your conversation partner to be modeled to you each have something to look at. Presumably people will want to use their actual faces and a static model isn't very interesting to talk to. So you either need a model that's fully rigged and a device to recognize your expressions and translate them into controls for the rig.

https://cdn.tutsplus.com/ae/uploads/legacy/637_vfx/AvatarFac...

http://metalarcade.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Resident-E...

Which we already do have, but it kind of sucks for any kind of general use.

Let's pretend for a minute that you don't have to markup somebody's face with dots to track, and some kind of near-term kinect-like system solves this.

Is this your vision of what people will be walking around with on their head? Except with two Google glass-like displays in front of their eyes?

Here's I did another mockup of your vision. Sorry for the shitty photoshop skills.

http://i.imgur.com/BaPV2Va.jpg

Is this really better than just video conferencing? Do I get anything out of this at all?

You can call me a cynic, and sorry if I killed your fantasy buzz, but not a single thing I've said here or before isn't true. Today or tomorrow.

Yeah sure, I read Snow Crash and got into the notion of the Metaverse. I think it's cool. I'm on board with the idea in principle. I'm just as upset as the next guy that the closest we've gotten to that vision is Second Life, EVE or WoW. It feels really close, but there are lots of gotchas that need lots of work to get past. Fantasy speculation isn't going to cut it.

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#214
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at some avatar that distinctly isn't you I presume? Because a video (no matter how good) of you wearing a pair of displays on your face is decidedly not as good as just video chatting. What specific experience is benefited by communicating in this way over just video or voice chat?

It is ridiculous beyond belief, it's getting to Kurzweil levels of "woooo, the future"

Here's a reply to another thread.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7496786

TIL one of the buzzwords that makes people really lose grasp of reality is VR.

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#215
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ridiculous beyond belief, it's getting to Kurzweil levels of "woooo, the future"

Here's a reply to another thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7496786 TIL one of the buzzwords that makes people really lose grasp of reality is VR.

That sums up my sentiments exactly.

But just to add, I've already owned a VR headset 20 years ago. Ok the screens were 320x240 but the resolution wasn't the downside, it was the neckache from wearing the damn things.

I've also got some NVidia 3d shutter glasses. You can play any OpenGL or DirectX game with them. They are great fun and really enhance a game. I've already played Everquest in 3D. (Although Dungeon Keeper 2 is my favourite, you can go into first person mode as a fly was wander round your dungeon - I've spent hours doing that).

3D porn is great also, I can recommend that.

I've not tried an Oculus but it looks like a neckache device to me.

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook has been taking their product to market for the last 8 years. What would you have them do? Change their product for the sake of it when it's still growing -- worldwide? Innovation in tech is still laudable innovation. Cassandra. Scribe. Thrift. React. Tech that is widely used. I don't think FB is as important to our industry as some other companies, but no, they're not dumb.

They are actually having growth problems, particularly with the younger demographic.

[deleted]

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#217
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook has been taking their product to market for the last 8 years. What would you have them do? Change their product for the sake of it when it's still growing -- worldwide? Innovation in tech is still laudable innovation. Cassandra. Scribe. Thrift. React. Tech that is widely used. I don't think FB is as important to our industry as some other companies, but no, they're not dumb.

I'm not challenging FB to innovate. It's not in their DNA. FB is FB. It is what it is. And that's why this acquisition is bad. There are no paths that FB will take with this tech that doesn't drive it right down the non-innovative path they're already on and committed to.

That's a little too hand-wavy for my taste. Like you used your jedi knight intellectual superiority to declare that FB doesn't get it and never will and you do and can clearly point it out.

Truth is, I don't know exactly what FB will do with this tech. But it seems silly to think it will only be within some narrow concept of their existing social network roadmap. I would bet on Facebook letting them stay separate and do their own thing, combining sales and marketing channels where opportunities exist. But only time will tell.

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#218
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a reply to another thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7496786 TIL one of the buzzwords that makes people really lose grasp of reality is VR.

That sums up my sentiments exactly. But just to add, I've already owned a VR headset 20 years ago. Ok the screens were 320x240 but the resolution wasn't the downside, it was the neckache from wearing the damn things. I've also got some NVidia 3d shutter glasses. You can play any OpenGL or DirectX game with them. They are great fun and really enhance a game. I've already played Everquest in 3D. (Although Dungeon Keepe…

I'm not sure what it is about VR that short circuits people's brains and they lose all concept about how things still have to work in the physical world.

I mean, can you really see a fashion conscious teenager coming home to chat with their friends looking like this? http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/images/manampli...

There's lots of issues with VR, it's definitely got some cool potential, and I've seen some really nice applications of it over the years.

One of the problems I remember from the 90s was the disembodiment problem. You can't see where your hands and arms are (even if proprioception informs you where they should be). Some versions tried to map your virtual body to your real body, but it's never the same and the illusion breaks. Other cases just ignored it, but then you're left fumbling for control surfaces you can't see. It's an uncanny valley you can't overcome unless you track every part of every limb and map it to a realistic simulacrum in the virtual space.

Haptics and feedback then become the next problem and on and on and on, there's a very long stream of issues that need resolution before it comes close to what people think they are fantasizing about in their heads. 3d head tracking goggles are the simplest problem to solve in this equation.

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#219
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have many possible answers to your statements, such as an observation that we already have head-mounted displays that do not block faces, or that real-time 3d face scanning is a potential advancement, but you're such a depressingly cynical person to try and converse with, I don't know why I'd bother. Your statement about when you were six is unwittingly apt. Such a concern with "rules" rather than nuance and discou…

Sorry I didn't realize I was talking to somebody with a completely made up and fantastical worldview, where hard problems are instantly solvable with fairy dust and dream juice. No wonder you feel like you can invent any future you wish whole cloth and in just a couple years, reality will bend to your will and products will appear on the market that bring your future to life at a price so cheap as to basically be com…

Once again, your cynical rant focuses entirely on the present state of COTS technology with no allowance for advancement.

Your assumption about me, by the way, is entirely wrong. If you've brought a product to market, I'm sorry the experience turned you into a cynical curmudgeon. It only turned me into someone who had accomplished something hard. Things being hard is not a reason not to do them, a reason to act as if others won't do them, or to fail to look around and notice the advancements occurring all around us.

Re: Oculus Says They Didn't Expect Such Negative Reactions to Selling to Facebook

#220
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My initial reaction was to ask why you brought Google into this conversation. Upon further thought, while Google does have a similar business model to Facebook, they have also built actual products and sold them directly to consumers, which Facebook has not. They also build an operating system, Android, used by the majority of smart phones sold worldwide. So no, they're not quite the same, but ignoring that, why brin…

Because Google used to be just a search engine. Seriously, is the idea that "things change with time" so alien to the HN audience?

That still has nothing to do with what I said. The poster I responded to brought up Google in a conversation that was completely unrelated to them. Not only that, his comparison wasn't even apt, because Google has built and sold hardware and develops Android, so saying their business model is exactly the same as Facebook isn't even remotely accurate.

I have no problem with companies changing their focus and direction, and my response was strictly related to the poster's out-of-left-field comment.

Post reply on HN