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Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

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Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#201

Post by burntroots »

wonderzombie wrote: post #177
burntroots wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to see this from another angle. It's 1970 and you've donated to an organization that advocates equal rights to blacks. As a consequence, when you rise through the ranks at your company and have the opportunity to be considered for CEO, your board of directors rejects you on the basis of that contribution. What you're saying is it's ok to deprive a man of his livelihood based on the current state of public opinion…

Um, it's wrong, but only because of the particulars of this example, in that the board is probably racist. And to close the loop on your example, it would be open season on the board once public opinion caught up with them. I think you're presupposing that principles are interchangeable and I don't accept that. I believe in some inherent human rights, and the merits of this particular issue are incredibly relevant. T…

So you're arguing my general argument is invalid because in the specific example I use, you claim the board is racist. You then go on to claim that social principles aren't interchangeable and public opinion would eventually obliterate them. My question is, if public opinion has always been and always will be anti-racist, how did so many racists get on the board of not just a single company, but the majority of companies in the 70's? Not to put too fine a point on it, but your belief that principles aren't "interchangeable" (I think you meant "changeable" or "subject to change"?) is provably wrong.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#202

Post by DerpDerpDerp »

wpietri wrote: post #197
DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one, as far as I'm aware, has pointed out examples of him behaving in a discriminatory manner - just that he holds a different view than them and engages in the political process. I certainly agree that workplace discrimination is a problem, I just don't think that one necessitates the other, as people are claiming here. > Do you often tell your boss he's an asshat? If so, you should read the people commenting her…

I'm pretty sure that helping to remove a civil right from a group of people can be taken as discriminatory. I agree that nobody has come forward with proof that he has done something wrong at Mozilla . Which is why he's still at Mozilla. But I don't think "hasn't been caught being an egregious bigot at work" is the only bar a CEO of a major nonprofit needs to clear. And whether or not he stays on as CEO, I think it's…

> I'm pretty sure that helping to remove a civil right from a group of people can be taken as discriminatory.

Sure, he holds views that some people should be discriminated against, and contributes to political causes advocating that. Lots of people hold those kind of views, and lots of people hold other objectionable views. My objection is to punishing him at work for that, and that alone.

I'm fine with Mozilla employees deciding that they're better off somewhere else, because they don't like their boss for any reason. That's their decision about who they associate with.

I think it's more of a problem when they decide he should be somewhere else because they don't like his opinions, or his political actions. I think that's discriminatory, and a large problem in a free society.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#203

Post by slantyyz »

wpietri wrote: post #195
slantyyz wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> He is free to express his opinions of gay people. Context matters though. If you make these opinions at the workplace and someone feels threatened, discriminated against or harassed, there are legal repercussions. And I assume this goes both ways. If you have an unpopular view that is expressed outside the workplace but are harassed by your coworkers, there is a risk of legal repercussions on those coworkers too.

Context matters some . But it's not like people's opinions reverse when they walk into the office. If he is biased against gays, a concern raised by helping fund the removal of one of their civil rights, people can be reasonably afraid that this will eventually affect them in the workplace. It need not be something obvious, either. Most decisions made by CEOs, especially decisions on who to reward and promote, are al…

Just to clarify, by context, I was referring to how free he is to express his opinions. Outside of the workplace, he can say whatever he wants short of what the law allows.

In the workplace, anti-discrimination and harassment laws do not make him free to express his opinions.

>> If he is biased against gays, a concern raised by helping fund the removal of one of their civil rights, people can be reasonably afraid that this will eventually affect them in the workplace.

I would think this concern would be true of any manager who has a fundamentalist interpretation of a particular religion too.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#204

Post by scott_karana »

hkphooey wrote: post #184
wonderzombie wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't accept this as "redefining marriage." For one thing, the definition has changed throughout history. "Redefining" is a talking point engineered by bigots when the fact is that gay marriage affects straight marriage not a whit. It's orthogonal. Straight folks just want an exclusive right to define it, and on that basis deny that right to other people. Well, sorry, but nobody ought to have that exclusive right,…

So it's not about words... or is it? > "Gay couples have been allowed since 2005 to enter "civil partnerships", conferring the same legal rights as marriage, but campaigners say the distinction gives the impression that society considers gay relationships inferior." http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/27/britain-gaymarriage...

Society DOES consider gay relationships inferior in many places, unfortunately.

Discrimination exists, and this same "different name" concept has existed, with socially damaging results, in the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#205

Post by lotsofmangos »

twoodfin wrote: post #158
PeterOliver wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did all of this moral relativism come from? What Eich believes goes against basic human rights. This isn't some argument about tax rates.

I think free speech is a basic human right, too, but I wouldn't demand my CEO be fired if he gave a million dollars to try to get a Constitutional amendment passed to overturn Citizens United .

I'm sure there exists a political cause that if your CEO was funding it, would cause you to demand their resignation or make you leave the company.

Say they are funding a campaign calling for speech restrictions of a group of which you are a member, for instance. You presumably have a line somewhere.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#206

Post by lotsofmangos »

mcphage wrote: post #199
hapless wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is being banished or burned at the stake. His suitability for a leadership position is openly questioned by employees in light of his publicly espoused views. Nothing more, nothing less.

> His suitability for a leadership position is openly questioned by employees in light of his publicly espoused views. Nothing more, nothing less. No, it's more than that: people are actively calling him to step down.

Asking someone to step down is openly questioning their suitability for a leadership position. That is the general method.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#207

Post by hkphooey »

scott_karana wrote: post #204
hkphooey wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's not about words... or is it? > "Gay couples have been allowed since 2005 to enter "civil partnerships", conferring the same legal rights as marriage, but campaigners say the distinction gives the impression that society considers gay relationships inferior." http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/27/britain-gaymarriage...

Society DOES consider gay relationships inferior in many places, unfortunately. Discrimination exists, and this same "different name" concept has existed, with socially damaging results, in the past: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal

Yes, and under Islam the punishment for simply being gay is DEATH - stoning, hanging and beheading - so why all the faux outrage at Brendan Eich instead of protesting outside mosques and embassies?!

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#208

Post by waps »

dllthomas wrote: post #187
waps wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liberals have power, feel the need to enforce their social order. Is this supposed to amaze anyone ? You should see how bad this get in some parts of Europe, although that could just be me having more experience with it in that part of the world. The problem liberals have is that while they're endemic in the rank and file of these companies, they're not exactly common at the top.

The problem is the liberals "enforcing their social order" with their power... by individually reacting to someone spending money to make sure the government resumes enforcing a particular social order? This is entirely a contest between a liberal desire to enforce social order A and a conservative desire to enforce social order B. There's a few who basically want government out of marriage all together, but that's a…

Except of course that conservatives are pretty much about that, while liberals' great claim is that they don't enforce any social order. They are about freedom, you can do anything you want, believe anything you want, want anything you want !

Here it's obvious that the exception is that this is predicated on you wanting exactly the same they want. The problem is the hypocrisy. The problem is that liberals constantly scream bloody murder if anyone uses the "but those guys do the same" defense.

The problem is that they enforce their own rules on others but not themselves. The problem is the blatant intolerance, the attempt to destroy a man's career because of his beliefs.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#210

Post by dllthomas »

waps wrote: post #208
dllthomas wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the liberals "enforcing their social order" with their power... by individually reacting to someone spending money to make sure the government resumes enforcing a particular social order? This is entirely a contest between a liberal desire to enforce social order A and a conservative desire to enforce social order B. There's a few who basically want government out of marriage all together, but that's a…

Except of course that conservatives are pretty much about that, while liberals' great claim is that they don't enforce any social order. They are about freedom, you can do anything you want, believe anything you want, want anything you want ! Here it's obvious that the exception is that this is predicated on you wanting exactly the same they want. The problem is the hypocrisy. The problem is that liberals constantly…

If you don't see the problems with this, I'm not going to get dragged in.
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