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Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

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Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#131

Post by intortus »

DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #125
intortus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference between holding general religious beliefs and contributing financially to a political movement specifically pursuing institutional discrimination of a large class of Americans. I'm a little troubled by the chilling effects that career and public opinion can have on political expression, but it's hard to generate sympathy for blatantly unconstitutional, horrendously discriminatory forms of po…

You're wrong on two points: a) Contributing financially to many religious institutions is explicitly financing groups who opposed gay marriage, and is an activity than many religious people undertake. b) Advocating for something that in some views is unconstitutional is a constitutionally protected activity. The practice itself may be unconstitutional (I certainly think so), however, the political advocacy itself is…

a) When you fund "mormonism" or whatever, there is a lot of plausible deniability that you're not a bigot, as this is a huge population of people doing a mix of things, mostly good. In contrast, when you specifically fund Prop 8, you need a really good excuse.

b) Advocating for something that is purely prejudicial and hateful is deserving of censure.

As I said, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about holding people accountable for their political views in general, but I do have some rationale for leaning toward censure in this particular case.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#132

Post by smacktoward »

Jormundir wrote: post #42
eigenvector wrote: post #4

The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBTQ…

I wouldn't call it a witch hunt. Now every Mozilla employee's work is contributing to Eich's paycheck. The paycheck with which he will (has) donate(d) to oppose gay marriage. If I was a Mozilla employee, this is not something I would want to be contributing to. This argument can obviously be applied to any employee in the company, but it's severely exacerbated when it's applied to the CEO, who's getting a huge payche…

If you work for a private company, and look up the causes that your CEO contributes to, you might be surprised at what you find there, too.

I'm not saying Eich's contributions are irrelevant, just that he would hardly be the first CEO to hold political opinions many or all of the people who work with him find repugnant.

> it's severely exacerbated when it's applied to the CEO, who's getting a huge paycheck

I haven't looked at their financials, but I would have to assume that CEO of Mozilla is one of the less lavishly paid "CEO of a major tech organization" jobs. Nobody goes to work at Mozilla to get rich.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#133

Post by wpietri »

spikels wrote: post #110

This is a bad idea. Your personal views - religious, political, whatever - should have nothing to do with your job as long as you don't bring them to work. If it is acceptable to demote or fire someone because of their political views or activity outside of work, we are opening a huge can of worms. I hope everyone can understand this.

In general I agree with your theory. But I think it's different when you want to be the figurehead and ultimate authority over thousands of people. Especially you've helped to strip civil rights from some of those people.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#134

Post by m0a0t0 »

circuiter wrote: post #63
m0a0t0 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think one person criticising another is going to cause a massive drop in market share. You really are being a little silly

Did you read my entire comment? Notice how I said "over the past 3 years".

I did. Perhaps I should have phrased my reply a bit better:

People who criticise another person for an act which is contentious is not going to produce a drop in market share.

Perhaps even this is not obvious enough for you. You're probably being deliberate obtuse though. The simple point is that you can't infer a technical ability from their belief on whether gay marriage is right or not.

In addition, even if these people were proven to be bad at their jobs, I doubt that would cause the drop in market share either. Three people who are not at the very top of the company are unlikely to have that effect.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#135

Post by freyrs3 »

eigenvector wrote: post #4

The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBTQ…

Exactly right, until he demonstrates an inability to bracket his personal affairs from his professional life (which he hasn't done) we as a enlightened pluralistic society should assume good faith and accept that he rose to this position based on his merit and contributions to the company and is probably a great candidate for the position.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#136

Post by DanBC »

sergiosgc wrote: post #83
stormcrowsx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eich was actively trying to stop what many people think should be a human right. He should face flak, and get a hard time over it, they should threaten his position. Even if they don't get him out of CEO it will make the next idiot that's high up in a company think twice before donating to stop human rights.

(touching this issue with all due care as not to call in the activists; read all the way through before replying) Redefinition of marriage is not a human right, sorry. I can't decide I'd like to marry my work and have society accept that as marriage. Marriage has a definition, that up until now hasn't included gay couples. Changing that is not trivial, is not a law of nature and is not supportable on human rights gro…

Are you aware that prohibition of same-sex marriage in English legislation is a recent thing? It was only written into law in 1971.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullity_of_Marriage_Act_1971

Marriage is tweaked when needed.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#137

Post by peterwwillis »

mquander wrote: post #100
joyeuse6701 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not always positive. Mob mentality like this could be 'good' when applied to civil rights, the fact that he is not a minority and his views not popular in the zeitgeist makes him a good target. Of course this sort of things is considered bad when the target is a minority. Basically, what matters is whether or not you are part of a group that is perceived to have power. That will determine how the mob treats…

I think that there's a real difference between types of behavior in this category. For example, if the same employees were calling him at night to yell the same message at him, I'm sure you'd agree that would be a terrible reaction. There are some pretty rude acts like that which are legal, but probably bad; e.g. the employees could go stand outside protesting loudly at his hypothetical kids' kindergarten, or spam al…

Witch hunts start with one person shouting that someone is a witch, and public opinion slowly grows and turns until someone is literally tied to a stake and has gas poured on them.

Nobody wants to literally burn someone alive. But at the same time, nobody wants to live with a witch in their community. Alone, nobody would go so far; but there's comfort and safety in numbers, and the more people support a cause, the easier it is to jump behind the masses and throw sharp objects without being singled out. If you'd like to see how an entire village can murder someone for, say, being a homosexual, google "necklacing".

Also, your idea of abusive behavior completely negates the real experience of people being harassed online. Women bloggers often get threatening letters and tweets that are hidden from view, telling them they should be raped, murdered, and worse. Even just a majority of people telling you you are a bad person is enough to cause severe depression and anxiety. Without experiencing it yourself, you really have no idea how horrible it can get. And if Brendan actually had a history of mental illness, this could easily drive him to kill himself, as many people have committed suicide from online bullying over the years.

Also: Are you saying these Mozilla employees were wronged? I'm certainly not aware if they were, so I don't see how any of this is justified.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#138

Post by kofejnik »

m0a0t0 wrote: post #54
Mikeb85 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting this. It's insane that there's this witch-hunt over someone's personal views, and the fact that this outlandish behaviour is actually supported and applauded by people. If anything this just gives more credence to the 'gay agenda' conspiracies that up until fairly recently no one took seriously...

Because equal marriage is really, really important. When gay people are not accepted in society opposing something that would improve that greatly is a bad thing to do

in other words, witch-hunt is ok if you support the cause?

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#140

Post by TDL »

figglesonrails wrote: post #106
TDL wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a witch hunt. Publicly professing your convictions has ramifications. "these folks are abusing the freedom they have to attack somebody..." What abuse? These people are exercising their freedom. Their freedom of speech, their freedom of association. There is no abuse here, this is exactly what people have a right to do. "politics and sex and gender and bullshit..." There is more to life than technical abil…

"What abuse?" -> Demanding that he resign and step down and/or pressuring people to force him to resign? If that comes to pass, that he is forced out of his position against his will, then that isn't free speech at work, it's tyranny of the majority. He will have been effectively fired for his religious beliefs. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Section 703(a)(1) and (2) "(a) Employer practices It shall be an…

Employees are not employers so I don't see how this a violation of Title VII since nothing of the nature has come to pass. I can demand anything I want this does not constitute abuse of any sort.
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