Live data from Hacker News

Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

arstechnica.com

81–90 of 94 posts

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#81
post #37

This could be an interesting model to do out in the open. Rather than covertly mine cryptocurrency, say that the app is free if you contribute hashes to a pool, or you can buy the premium version that doesn't. Almost like the "slow" version vs the "fast" version of an app.

Didn't this idea start with SETI@home in the 90's ?

The idea of sharing computation cycles certainly did, however, converting those computation cycles into currency so it can fuel other "real" work is most definitely a by-product of bitcoin.

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#82
post #71
post #31

What is the hashrate on these? Could'nt imagine it being very high...

[deleted]

Scrypt based coins (like doge) won't get hashrates nearly that high. For example, a GTX670 pulls in ~300kh/s while mining doge. 1.3mh/s would make the Galaxy faster than the current highest end graphics card[1]. A Raspberry Pi pulls in just under half a kilohash/sec[2]. So your number is probably about 1000x higher than it should be, based on the number for the Pi. $17/hour is a lot less attractive.

[1]https://litecoin.info/Mining_hardware_comparison#Laptop_.2F_...

[2]http://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/1ttxhi/digging_wit...

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#83
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, its theft. If I borrow your bicycle all the time without you knowing it may be innocent enough, but it still causes wear and tear on the bicycle. I am thieving bicycle time from you that you paid for. If I had simply asked for it, you couldn't blame me, but alas I took it without your consent. [edit] Do either of these apps explicitly state that they will access/use device in this way?

No it's not theft, it's conversion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law)

It's not XOR.

Taking someone else's property can be both theft and conversion.

Conversion is a tort, a matter of a lawsuit between parties.

Theft is a crime, a matter between a citizen and the state.

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#84
post #74
post #19

I've been working on an idea similar to this for a few months. Instead of limiting this to crypto currency mining (a fair application, FWIW), why not approach this with the idea that people plugging in their phones every night could easily constitute the largest distributed supercomputer ever built? Everyone has the same nightly ritual: Wake up, use phone/tablet/device, plug in at night. Once it's plugged in, your ph…

Errr.... I know that phone chargers draw some power even when the phone isn't charging, but surely it's orders of magnitude less than what they draw when the attached device is running at full capacity. Not to mention how hot the damn things could get. So it's going to cost me electricity and probably shorten the life of my phone - why would I sign up?

The app actually monitors the battery temperature (exposed on all Android phones) and throttles down when it exceeds a certain threshold.

The charging circuitry on some phones (not all) actually disengages the battery from the charging circuit path once 100% AC power is reached. In other words your phone's CPU runs off of AC power (and not via the battery) once 100% charge is reached.

Why you would sign up is where it gets interesting - the app works via a similar incentivization scheme as how bitcoin miners work - the more you run the app (mine) the likelier you stumble upon a valid proof of work, and you get rewarded by virtual currency.

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#85
post #25
post #19

I've been working on an idea similar to this for a few months. Instead of limiting this to crypto currency mining (a fair application, FWIW), why not approach this with the idea that people plugging in their phones every night could easily constitute the largest distributed supercomputer ever built? Everyone has the same nightly ritual: Wake up, use phone/tablet/device, plug in at night. Once it's plugged in, your ph…

I thought of this as well, but more along the lines of protein folding. I think finding a cure for one of those diseases would be more than enough for most people to justify the power consumption.

Folding@Home, and the BOINC network over at Berkeley have done a great job at this already. http://boinc.berkeley.edu

There's still an immense opportunity to tap unused cycles if you give people another reason to donate their device time. Unfortunately, altruistic purposes don't always appeal to the masses :-)

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#86

Careful.. The New Jersey DA is trying to go after an MIT student for simply exploring the freemium mining concept at a hackathon. He got MIT and the EFF to back him, but there are probably others looking to make an example out of someone. http://venturebeat.com/2014/02/12/new-jersey-slaps-mit-bitco...

Yep, at RPI we had a research project doing something a bit similar by tying bitcoin transactions to the HTTP protocol itself to enable on-the-fly payments with an alternative of on-the-fly mining. RPI lawyers told us to stop after we asked for counsel due to money transmitter laws. A few months later the MIT kid got hit with a subpoena. Bullet dodged for us but I really hope he pulls through with a win.

This is the thing that worries me the most about Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies--because I want them to succeed--there are myriad laws surrounding money transfers, especially electronically. There are tax implications, as well. There are also huge trade agreements internationally--and even intranationally--that come into play, as well. Banks and credit card companies currently handle most of the legality of these things, but with cryptocurrencies, there are no banks--these are essentially cash transactions.

I expect more and more folks will start to "discover" the real legal implications of some of these types of applications. I'm sure we'll see some story or what have you, and we'll all cry foul, even though the laws have been in place for many years and we mostly (albeit somewhat unknowingly) abide by them.

I also expect that folks will "discover" why we have central banks for currencies, and why Alexander Hamilton was a Smart Guy.

While cryptocurrencies are new, the problems they'll face aren't--in fact, we've solved these problems mostly in developed countries. They still exist pretty readily in developing countries, though. What happens when we start selling securities based around cryptocurrencies, such as derivatives? If you think the SEC will allow Americans to buy, sell, and even discuss securities openly, you are out of your mind.

What about money laundering? When/if you ever work for a bank or an investment firm in the US, you'll take some training around money laundering (there are even tests at the end). The SEC (allegedly) holds these firms responsible for spotting, reporting, and stopping money laundering schemes. What happens when money laundering happens over an exchange? How will that be handled?

Sorry for the long-windedness...your anecdote just got me thinking.

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#87
post #35
post #19

I've been working on an idea similar to this for a few months. Instead of limiting this to crypto currency mining (a fair application, FWIW), why not approach this with the idea that people plugging in their phones every night could easily constitute the largest distributed supercomputer ever built? Everyone has the same nightly ritual: Wake up, use phone/tablet/device, plug in at night. Once it's plugged in, your ph…

I could see it being used for protein folding, but I don't think cryptocurrency mining is an application. By running your app, I'm consuming extra electricity for which I would have to pay. How would you compensate me for that?

The basic crux of how the app works is similar to how regular bitcoin miners work. As you run the app, the app runs compute jobs (known as Stynts) which generates proof-of-work (that it did something) and sends it up to our servers. The more you run the app, the more proof-of-work you generate. You get rewarded via virtual currency (we assign to you) when you successfully run a Stynt which can then be exchanged for real goods.

Of course, the amount you get compensated should feel valuable and commensurate to the "effort" your device expended for this to be worthwhile. It largely boils down to user expectations, but given economics of scale, I'm confident that we can have more than a 1:1 ROI of effort to reward.

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the app have ads in addition to the mining aspect? As someone pointed out in a similar past thread, 1 coin for $0 of energy is still an infinite profit.

That's putting a value of zero on being fined (or worse). I don't think the risk is non-zero. Just takes one zealous AG to file a case against you (even if you're out of jurisdiction, there's a non-zero chance you might end up passing through at some point).

Yes, that's definitely true. I don't know what kind of vetting is performed for free apps on the Play Store, but for all we know, couldn't it be someone pseudonymous in a non-extradition country uploading via Tor?

Re: Apps with millions of Google Play downloads covertly mine cryptocurrency

#90

This could be an interesting model to do out in the open. Rather than covertly mine cryptocurrency, say that the app is free if you contribute hashes to a pool, or you can buy the premium version that doesn't. Almost like the "slow" version vs the "fast" version of an app.

The economics make no sense. It costs more in electricity to run the program than to just pay for it directly. It's a trivially small amount.
Post reply on HN