Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down” • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#111

Post by wonderzombie » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:41 PM UTC

sergiosgc wrote: post #83

stormcrowsx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eich was actively trying to stop what many people think should be a human right. He should face flak, and get a hard time over it, they should threaten his position. Even if they don't get him out of CEO it will make the next idiot that's high up in a company think twice before donating to stop human rights.

(touching this issue with all due care as not to call in the activists; read all the way through before replying) Redefinition of marriage is not a human right, sorry. I can't decide I'd like to marry my work and have society accept that as marriage. Marriage has a definition, that up until now hasn't included gay couples. Changing that is not trivial, is not a law of nature and is not supportable on human rights gro…

I don't accept this as "redefining marriage." For one thing, the definition has changed throughout history. "Redefining" is a talking point engineered by bigots when the fact is that gay marriage affects straight marriage not a whit. It's orthogonal.

Straight folks just want an exclusive right to define it, and on that basis deny that right to other people. Well, sorry, but nobody ought to have that exclusive right, especially when it's little more than a fig leaf to deny privileges to a group of people. We all know the real reason. It's religious, which just doesn't hold any water, and everybody knows that.

And your remedy is "separate but equal." Non-starter.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#112

Post by hkphooey » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:41 PM UTC

MBlume wrote: post #88

eigenvector wrote: post #4

The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBTQ…

> The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBT…

Or maybe these employees have cynically protected themselves from layoffs... because they could claim the CEO targeted them due to a difference in opinion!

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#113

Post by gjm11 » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:41 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #38

davidgerard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when there is no documented instance of him ever disparaging or otherwise harming LGBTQ employees or community members. Except the bit where he contributed $1000 to a campaign to vilify them and take away their rights.

Here's the proposition's full text: http://www.ag.ca.gov/cms_pdfs/initiatives/i737_07-0068_Initi... It hardly vilifies anyone--it's pretty stupidly worded as is ("marriage"? What is that? How does it compare with "civil union"?) Look, did you vote for Obama or Bush? Then you too have actively vilified people and acted to take away their rights. We can't punish people for participating in our form of government, even…

> Look, did you vote for Obama or Bush?

He lives in the UK, so I doubt it.

Also: when there are only two candidates with any real chance of winning, voting for the one who (personally and party-affiliation-wise) has a more liberal attitude to gay rights is obviously not actively vilifying gay people and acting to take away their rights.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#114

Post by npizzolato » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:42 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #91

josephlord wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla, much more than most is a political organisation (about freedom and openness) not just a commercial one. It has a mission, it will succeed with community support and goodwill. The political views of the CEO matter. People are not saying (as far as I have heard) that there should be no place at Mozilla for Brendan Eich due to his political views but they are clearly uncomfortable with him leading a political o…

> Mozilla, much more than most is a political organisation (about freedom and openness) not just a commercial one. What about the freedom to have personal beliefs, and do what you want with your own money and time? If anything the people criticizing Brendan Eich are trying to take away his freedom...

No, they're not. Freedom has to do with what the government is allowed to punish you for. No one is saying he shouldn't have been allowed to donate money in support of Prop 8. But actions have consequences outside of what the government can do.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#115

Post by josephlord » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:42 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #91

josephlord wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla, much more than most is a political organisation (about freedom and openness) not just a commercial one. It has a mission, it will succeed with community support and goodwill. The political views of the CEO matter. People are not saying (as far as I have heard) that there should be no place at Mozilla for Brendan Eich due to his political views but they are clearly uncomfortable with him leading a political o…

> Mozilla, much more than most is a political organisation (about freedom and openness) not just a commercial one. What about the freedom to have personal beliefs, and do what you want with your own money and time? If anything the people criticizing Brendan Eich are trying to take away his freedom...

Trading freedoms for employment is quite normal (my speech was constrained while employed - mostly about my company and it's products) but anyway Eich used his freedom which he is welcome to. However, having done that and expressed his political views (money is speech etc.) it should not be surprising that his political views are relevant to his ability in a political leadership role. If he can't take the community with him he is the wrong man for that role.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#116

Post by intortus » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:44 PM UTC

freyrs3 wrote: post #98

intortus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference between holding general religious beliefs and contributing financially to a political movement specifically pursuing institutional discrimination of a large class of Americans. I'm a little troubled by the chilling effects that career and public opinion can have on political expression, but it's hard to generate sympathy for blatantly unconstitutional, horrendously discriminatory forms of po…

Philosophically what's the difference between financially supporting a political cause and voting for leaders which support that cause?

The intent behind a financial contribution (or any other sort of contribution to a campaign) is to amplify one's vote by getting others to join in.

What makes this case so interesting is that the campaign in question is so specifically wrong. If it were for a candidate or party who has some questionable views, I'd feel inappropriate holding it against someone, but I'm not aware of any saving graces for Prop 8.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#117

Post by wpietri » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:44 PM UTC

MBlume wrote: post #88

eigenvector wrote: post #4

The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBTQ…

> The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBT…

Definitely. Or that it's better to stand together than to fall separately. Or that during this moment of transition they're mostly likely to win out. Or that they want to be on record so that if something does happen, they'll have better material for a press push or a lawsuit. Or that they figure they might as well give fixing things a try before they leave Mozilla. Or a bunch of other things.

The notion that them speaking out now proves that they have nothing to worry about is ridiculous. If nobody had spoken out, that would also have been used as proof that everything is fine.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#118

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:45 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #72

m0a0t0 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because equal marriage is really, really important. When gay people are not accepted in society opposing something that would improve that greatly is a bad thing to do

Why? Marriage has always been about community and religion, in many countries people never bother registering it with the government. In some countries like Canada, common-law partners get the same benefits as married partners. Personally, I'd be all for doing away with the entire government institution of marriage, and simply have 'civil unions' for all, with each community and religion being able to decide for them…

> Marriage has always been about community and religion, in many countries people never bother registering it with the government.

At least in Europe, that's pretty much backwards -- marriage has always been about property, and, it was fairly late that the Church even got involved at all, and the Church getting deeply involved in governing marriage was largely a trend that happened as the Church deepened its involvement in government more generally.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#119

Post by Roscius » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:45 PM UTC

sergiosgc wrote: post #83

stormcrowsx wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eich was actively trying to stop what many people think should be a human right. He should face flak, and get a hard time over it, they should threaten his position. Even if they don't get him out of CEO it will make the next idiot that's high up in a company think twice before donating to stop human rights.

(touching this issue with all due care as not to call in the activists; read all the way through before replying) Redefinition of marriage is not a human right, sorry. I can't decide I'd like to marry my work and have society accept that as marriage. Marriage has a definition, that up until now hasn't included gay couples. Changing that is not trivial, is not a law of nature and is not supportable on human rights gro…

"Separate but Equal" has been tried before. In Brown v. Board of Education - "Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal". Same can be said of marriage, it's impossible to attain equality in a separate "civil union" status. Also - marriage has been been redefined many times, it's certainly hasn't historically been immutable.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#120

Post by m0a0t0 » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:46 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #72

m0a0t0 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because equal marriage is really, really important. When gay people are not accepted in society opposing something that would improve that greatly is a bad thing to do

Why? Marriage has always been about community and religion, in many countries people never bother registering it with the government. In some countries like Canada, common-law partners get the same benefits as married partners. Personally, I'd be all for doing away with the entire government institution of marriage, and simply have 'civil unions' for all, with each community and religion being able to decide for them…

It hasn't always been about religion, possibly community though.

Doing away with government marriages if it was for everyone. At the moment it is important because it has tax benefits and not having it equal makes gay people seem like second class citizens.