Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down” • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#71

Post by twoodfin » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:30 PM UTC

cdmckay wrote: post #15

chrismcb wrote: post #6

How can "@mozilla stands for openness" if you restrict who can run the company?

So you'd be ok if he was a racist? Brendan is entitled to express his views, but it doesn't mean they come without consequences.

By that logic, I'm sure no one working at Mozilla voted for Barack Obama in 2008 when he publicly held a position you now consider in the same ethical category as that a "racist" would hold.

This is not so far removed from saying Mary Jones shouldn't be CEO of Mozilla because she donated to a campaign against CO2 emission restrictions: Again by analogy with a settled political issue, "She's denying Global Warming. You'd be OK if she denied the Holocaust?"

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#72

Post by Mikeb85 » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

m0a0t0 wrote: post #54

Mikeb85 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting this. It's insane that there's this witch-hunt over someone's personal views, and the fact that this outlandish behaviour is actually supported and applauded by people. If anything this just gives more credence to the 'gay agenda' conspiracies that up until fairly recently no one took seriously...

Because equal marriage is really, really important. When gay people are not accepted in society opposing something that would improve that greatly is a bad thing to do

Why?

Marriage has always been about community and religion, in many countries people never bother registering it with the government. In some countries like Canada, common-law partners get the same benefits as married partners.

Personally, I'd be all for doing away with the entire government institution of marriage, and simply have 'civil unions' for all, with each community and religion being able to decide for themselves what 'marriage' means.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#73

Post by josephlord » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

eigenvector wrote: post #4

The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBTQ…

Mozilla, much more than most is a political organisation (about freedom and openness) not just a commercial one. It has a mission, it will succeed with community support and goodwill. The political views of the CEO matter.

People are not saying (as far as I have heard) that there should be no place at Mozilla for Brendan Eich due to his political views but they are clearly uncomfortable with him leading a political organisation. A commitment and career somewhere does not entitle you to be CEO of the organisation if that is not what is best for the organisation.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#74

Post by wpietri » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

david927 wrote: post #5

It's his personal view. What does freedom mean if it's only about views that everyone likes?

Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. He is free to express his opinions of gay people. They are free to express their opinions of him. See how that works? Everybody's free to say their piece.

Of course, the problem here isn't his view, which nobody actually knows. It's that he helped strip a civil right from a bunch of people, including some of those he will now be in charge of.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#75

Post by derefr » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

mquander wrote: post #21

eigenvector wrote: post #4

The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBTQ…

Let me be clear: I believe Brendan Eich is wrong about gay marriage. But I don't think the price of his convictions should be his career at Mozilla, a company he's played a large role in building, when there is no documented instance of him ever disparaging or otherwise harming LGBTQ employees or community members. I don't know what the price of Eich's convictions should be, but I think that a good way to find out is…

> strongly affected by his convictions

These sorts of convictions, that people hold on controversial topics, are like the (modern, non-fundamentalist) practice of religion: something you speak about to espouse your identification with a group, but which holds no sway one way or another with your day-to-day decision-making. They are, in Robin Hanson's terms, "far-mode beliefs."

And, as with the (modern, non-fundamentalist) practice of religion, the best attitude to follow, I think, is "as long as it doesn't affect anything important [like someone else's life], you can think whatever you like." This attitude allows people with diametrically-opposed far-mode beliefs to get along.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#76

Post by TDL » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:32 PM UTC

hkphooey wrote: post #30

eigenvector wrote: post #4

The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBTQ…

People are employed on what they contribute to the company, not on their social or political views. If these employees are such bigots and fascists, that they can't fathom someone having a different opinion to their own, they should resign and work elsewhere. Mozilla is a technology company with the mission to promote a free and open web. If these employees believed that Mozilla was some kind of political organisatio…

Please articulate how they are being bigots. Also, how exactly are they fascists? I don't see any of them advocating for the subjugation of individuality or economic freedom for the furtherance of the state. Fascism has an actual meaning, it's not just some mud to sling around.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#77

Post by twoodfin » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:33 PM UTC

hapless wrote: post #31

eigenvector wrote: post #4

The fact that they can come out and say this demonstrates that these employees, the people best able to assess this, don't believe that Eich will retaliate. That Mozilla is and remains a place where any employee can express their views on political issues, even if they know they're contrary to the CEO's. And that destroys any argument for Eich's role as CEO creating a conflict with Mozilla's ability to welcome LGBTQ…

We have secret ballots for a reason: what you do in public has consequences. When you speak in public, it's possible that you will face censure from your employers, your employees, or your customers. You can't control how other people feel about what your actions.

Sure it's possible, and of course legal. But it behooves your employers, employees and customers to remember that we live in a civil society, and banishing the heretics rather than gracefully tolerating and persuading them is poisonous for that society.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#78

Post by bentruyman » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:33 PM UTC

cdmckay wrote: post #49

simias wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, he didn't fund the war in Uganda. I don't share his views or anything but I don't see why "not liking the gays" or whatever should have any influence at all on whether or not he's suitable to run a tech company. It's not a political office.

So if he donated to the KKK, would you still think "not liking non-white people" or whatever should have any influence on whether or not he's suitable to run a tech company? It's not a political office.

Just so you understand, you're comparing the KKK to Prop 8 supporters.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#79

Post by wpietri » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:33 PM UTC

bentruyman wrote: post #52

cmhamill wrote: post #27

Some very strange reactions in this thread. The idea that this somehow validates the notion that Eich's politics don't affect Mozilla as a workplace seems particularly bizarre, to me. My read on this is that there are employees at Mozilla who feel strongly enough about this to speak publicly, and the most likely reason is because they believe that Eich as CEO will affect their workplace.

He's been CTO since 2005. Now his views will suddenly begin to "affect their workplace"?

CTO is a technical role. CEO is boss of everybody, and organizational figurehead. So yeah, it's very different.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#80

Post by angersock » Thu, Mar 27, 2014, 6:33 PM UTC

TDL wrote: post #62

angersock wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, wouldn't it be terrible if you were persecuted and had your career ruined because of your perceived feelings on marriage or political commentary/donations? EDIT: Downvote away, but it's pretty obvious that these folks are abusing the freedom they have to attack somebody who deserves our respect and admiration, and are tarnishing the reputation of their cause. This witch-hunt isn't helping anyone--it's saying th…

This isn't a witch hunt. Publicly professing your convictions has ramifications. "these folks are abusing the freedom they have to attack somebody..." What abuse? These people are exercising their freedom. Their freedom of speech, their freedom of association. There is no abuse here, this is exactly what people have a right to do. "politics and sex and gender and bullshit..." There is more to life than technical abil…

He didn't "profess" anything--there was a note in a public ledger saying "so and so donated thus and such to this cause".

That's a far cry from hopping up on a podium and decrying the evils of the homosexual agenda. Had a muckrake not come across it, nobody would've known, and fewer still would've cared.