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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#292

Anecdotal: I'm a part-time CTO (long story) of a startup. I'm 30 myself. We hired 6 engineers in total up until now: three interns in their twenties, who're very smart and motivated but also inexperienced; two programmers with a few years of professional experience who can get to real decent (well written, unit tested, etc) code on the first go; and 1 guy of over 40. When hiring, I was very skeptical of the guy over…

> Hire older people! This is a great anecdote, though I don't fully understand why it surprises people. Most people in their early 20s are still "kids", both socially and work-experience-wise. Give me a hungry 30+ any day.

> why it surprises people

It surprises young people. 30+ isn't all that old.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/older/experienced/. Grey hair does not engender wisdom.

There's a strong correlation that shouldn't be hard to figure out. You're right that it's not necessarily equivalent, but I don't think anyone posited that gray hair automatically equals masterful programming ability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXcWeFn-YYM

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#294
The Andreessen quote "You can't start designing bridges at 10" sums up another problem nicely: the young, talented or not, may be wasting their youth on ultimately meaningless projects while the hard engineering disciplines are starved of fresh talent.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes a presumption that someone who spent 25 years at the same employer stagnated. I spent nearly 10 years at my first employer, but in that time I had three different positions. On my resume I have started listing it as three separate positions, which seems to confuse some people but is an accurate portrayal of my time there. I do not think one employer == one role is an accurate assumption and that "10 jobs o…

If you've switched 10 companies in the last 25 years, then your value contains lots of stuff that was transferrable/common to different jobs; if you've been 25 years in a single tech area, then it's very likely that your key value is in-depth knowledge of that particular area - unless I need that exact area expertise; an employee with 10 different shallow expertises would be more valuable to me than 1 really deep exp…

What about 10 similar shallow experiences vs. 1 really varied experience? That is exactly the false dilemma I was talking about earlier. Changing companies does not automatically mean changing roles, and staying with one company does not automatically rule it out.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#296
post #85
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mention IBM, one aspect that always bugged me was upto the mid 80's they had a thing about people with beards and was some sort of unwitten policey (never worked for them) that nobody could have a beard and any intervewing with them entailed making sure you had a good shave. I worked with a chap at RAND who went onto work for IBM porting AIX onto the mainframe (least that was the initial project he was joing for)…

I worked as an intern at IBM last summer. It seemed like my entire team was a stagnant pool from the 70's. The languages were C and HLASM, 'high level assembler.' None of my managers knew anything about newer languages like Golang or Haskell. We built hash tables by converting strings to integers and then using modulus. They laughed at the idea of a Linux machine being useful as a server. That said, most of the new h…

That has more to do with IBM / that dept within IBM than the individuals.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#297
post #259
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another benefit (I might be selling myself here, watch out) is that older programmers have lived through more issues. Be it management, technical, HR, etc. We have seen more. And some of us know how to steer clear of such issues, and when to interject.

Side effect this is that they don't freak out when stuff goes wrong. They've seen a lot of stuff go wrong in their lives, and they know how to work through it to a solution.

They won't necessarily know what the solution is. But that's okay.

You will see the following in experienced, good consultants as well. A lot will go wrong on a gig that is not anticipated during the initial scoping of the project. The inexperienced (often but not always correlated with youth) will "freak out". Whether it is a passive flip out like analysis paralysis or a more overt one, the end effect upon management/clients is still unpleasant for them.

Even when I was much younger in the field, I observed some of the older staff tended to have an imperturbability and unflappability about them even when presented with unexpected and unwelcome challenges (read: emergencies). They often didn't know what the solution was, but had enough taste and experience to know where to start and to start Getting Shit Done. This meant picking a likely direction of troubleshooting and just start walking a breadth-first search of causes, then a depth-first on anything turning up from the breadth-first that looked promising. Easy to describe in these antiseptic terms and comfort of your keyboard, hard for many younger developers in the heat of the moment when there is a frantic manager beating them about the ears that the company is about to go under if they don't fix this "right this damned second!".

This points out another observation I've made about managing younger developers. Do not mistake their energy level and enthusiasm for the degree of emotional and verbal abuse it requires to engage them. It might be different for other industries and positions (I doubt it), but too many times I've seen people take the easy way out and subscribe to the Management by Berating school. Also called the Management by Complaining/Screaming/Browbeating school. You can mention the dire effects some emergency has to the younger crowd to establish context, but move on from it and don't use it as a way to urge them on to fix something faster. Most younger developers simply do not possess the life experience to easily tamp down the anxieties they feel and set them aside long enough to dispassionately fix the problem at hand if there is management at their desk anxiously wanting blow-by-blow updates.

This doesn't mean you simply dump the problem in the younger developers' laps and walk away, either. Neither extreme is good for your team or organization. Lead by example with a calm approach to working the problem, either make decisions on where to start or support your senior leads with their educated guesses with where to start (and if you don't know where to start and don't have senior leads to turn to, you've got bigger problems), triage the effects with mitigation tasks, assign bite-sized tasks to the less experienced developers as your judgement advises, create a big picture view for yourself with the best information available of where your team stands with the problem, clarify the picture as you go along, and run interference from the rest of the organization's managers who Manage by Dysfunction.

A side note for younger developers. The only partial shortcut to that unflappability I've had experience with is to secure yourself 2-3 years of living expenses as soon as you can. It helps you achieve perspective, especially when a manager yells you'll lose your job over something. It isn't a replacement for experience, taste, judgement, whatever you want to call it, but it does help a lot with compartmentalizing the emotional component of facing down stressful situations at work, which takes most employees a decade or two to learn, and some don't learn it at all.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#298
post #259
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another benefit (I might be selling myself here, watch out) is that older programmers have lived through more issues. Be it management, technical, HR, etc. We have seen more. And some of us know how to steer clear of such issues, and when to interject.

Side effect this is that they don't freak out when stuff goes wrong. They've seen a lot of stuff go wrong in their lives, and they know how to work through it to a solution.

That's not always what employers want. I've been reprimanded for not visibly freaking out enough during a server outage.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#299
As a person going through a career change, ageism is something I am sort of concerned with. If it takes me a few years to become "good" at what I am doing, I am really pushing being considered "old" in the tech industry.

However, I really think it is a money issue that is subconsciously present in how the tech industry hires or funds people. It's much cheaper to hire/fund a 23 year old than it is a 33 year old.

23 year olds negotiate a lot worse. They are easier to manipulate and take advantage of. You can convince a 23 year old to take a cut in salary for "huge potential". A 33 year old with 10 years of experience will have been fooled a few times and be much less willing to take a bad deal.

Also, there is a misconception that the 23 year old has comparable skills to the 33 year old.

If the 23 year old has been coding since he was 15, then he has 8 years "experience". We all know that is sort of bullshit. While some teenagers take coding seriously, it's a lot different than working on a real project with deadlines, customers, and "It has to work" attitude.

So, the hirer/funder convinces himself that the younger person has similar skills AND will be easier to guide or manipulate.

It's not just in tech that this happens, but it is more prevalent because tech is such a fasting changing and relatively young industry.

I mean, at one point, railroads were the latest thing and people starting railroad companies were young guys full of piss and vinegar.

I think as time goes on, you will see a gradual changing of attitudes, but it has surprised me how long this prejudice has stayed.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Live below your means, save the majority of your income, move someone nice and cheap (Central/South America, parts of Asia).

Come talk to me when you hit 50 :-) The "retire to Latin America" trope seems to be extremely popular amongst thirtysomethings who haven't necessarily considered what it would be like to suddenly put thousands of miles between yourself and aging parents, family, children, whatever friends you still have, etc. It just ain't that simple.

I'm sure its different for everyone, but I'm 31 and live in a 1100 sq ft condo with my wife; I could give away all our Ikea furniture in 24 hours on Craigslist and be on the other side of the world in 48-72 hours. That's just me though and how I like to live.
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