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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#71

Post by rayiner »

yukichan wrote: post #12

Experience is a liability. You learn all kinds of things as an engineer that quickly become obsolete. Even in the web environment. If you're still worried about hasLayout or rounding corners with images, or god forbid using tables for layout, or even setting explicit widths on your web pages instead of responsive media queries, you're adhering to obsolete ways of doing things that are hurting you more than helping. E…

You're being down voted because what you're wrong (which I agree is not a good use of a down vote). You seem like someone who doesn't realize that software technology doesn't really change, just get painted a different color. Its like a Dunning-Kruger effect for life experience.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#72

Post by gmjosack »

daveqr wrote: post #7

Guess what, there's a lot of software being written by people not in their 20s in places like Kansas City, Boston and Nashville. The world doesn't revolve around Silicon Valley.

But the benefits are definitely hard to compete with. I worked for 8 years back in South Florida, 4 at a web hosting company, another 4 at a digital media company. Having to buy pop-tarts/soda in a vending machine, 2 weeks vacation, dealing with dinosaur middle management. It's incredibly frustrating.

Now I'm in the Bay Area and I often consider getting out but in general the jobs here just have better benefits. I'm not just talking about foosball/ping pong tables. I'm talking Gourmet meals, 3-4 weeks vacation, unlimited sick time, people who want to work on interesting technology problems, great salaries plus equity.

If I decided to leave my job today, there are a ton of good options all over with the exact same comp package, because they have to to be competitive in this area. I could relocate but I'd feel I was held hostage by the other options in the area I chose to move to.

I've seen the other side and it'd take a lot for me to go back.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#73

Post by throwaway5752 »

UK-AL wrote: post #28
freyrs3 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 90% of starts up do the "latest compile-to-JS language" thing. Sounds like an accurate statistical sampling to me.

Its not meant to be accurate sampling, its hyperbole to prove a point. But you can see for yourself. Have a look at most jobs at start ups, they're always javascript/ruby/python/fancy new framework or mobile apps to reinvent online shopping or web site analytics or something.

Hey, leave Python out of it :)

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#74

Post by fecak »

vonmoltke wrote: post #62
fecak wrote: post #46

Ageism is a real problem, but in my opinion ageism is often cited by job seekers where the problem is something else entirely. In tech, there seems to be quite a bit of discrimination today against employees who have worked for many years at the same position, and that discrimination is typically aimed at large environments. Startups seem to be ok with hiring older engineers who bounced around and worked in startups…

That makes a presumption that someone who spent 25 years at the same employer stagnated. I spent nearly 10 years at my first employer, but in that time I had three different positions. On my resume I have started listing it as three separate positions, which seems to confuse some people but is an accurate portrayal of my time there. I do not think one employer == one role is an accurate assumption and that "10 jobs o…

I'm not saying the assumption is fair, and there are certainly exemptions. I'm saying that startups tend to assume that if you've been at the same place for 25 years, there is a reason for that, and the reason is usually negative.

When you say 'people like me', keep in mind that just because you have had three different roles at one company in itself doesn't mean you didn't stagnate, just as the person with ten jobs may have stagnated.

All assumptions have some danger, and I'm not condoning the behavior. I think it's valuable to explain to people who feel they are being discriminated against based on age may be more likely associated with stagnation (actual or assumed) based on extended tenure.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#75

Post by pistle »

zomgbbq wrote: post #55

I'm a 40+ engineer in the NYC metro area and I've never felt more in-demand in my life! I think it boils down to a simple idea: computer-science is a dynamic field and THE FUN PART is that you need to always be learning. There are still some colleagues my age who still wax about the days of writing JCL for their mainframe jobs and never evolved past the 80's and perhaps they gave a bad name for others who built on th…

It's never easier to blitz through interviews and ramp on new tech than if you've seen most/all of it before.

We're just figuring out where the old abstractions land and the syntactic sugar has made life easier.

There is a massive personality issue at play. If you love this stuff, you don't let new stuff pass you by and end up being a specialist on the dead end. You're constantly sharpening the sword... because you love sharpening swords. Staying relevant and employable is a side-effect.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#76

Post by jordanb »

Another interesting thing that this article touches on is VCs being biased against Boston, or more broadly, biased against companies headquartered anywhere except the Bay Area.

Given the increasingly insane economics of the Bay Area they're attaching millstones around the necks of the companies they invest in. And just like with ageism the purported benefits on which they base their biases are dubious at best.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#77

Post by fecak »

zomgbbq wrote: post #55

I'm a 40+ engineer in the NYC metro area and I've never felt more in-demand in my life! I think it boils down to a simple idea: computer-science is a dynamic field and THE FUN PART is that you need to always be learning. There are still some colleagues my age who still wax about the days of writing JCL for their mainframe jobs and never evolved past the 80's and perhaps they gave a bad name for others who built on th…

A decision to specialize in mobile in 2009 would probably have even worked out for a 60+ engineer if they were good at it. The best way to combat ageism is to stay technically relevant. Good decision.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#78

Post by jedanbik »

stefan_kendall3 wrote: post #70

This article might more aptly be titled the brutal ageism of silicon valley. Or perhaps the brutal ageism of startups. There are red flags that you can easily spot in a job interview or job posting that indicate that the employer wants 80-hour weeks. And who signs up for 80-hour weeks? Naive young people who don't value their time and don't have other commitments, like side projects or family.

Red flags like what?

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#79

Post by ilaksh »

colmmacc wrote: post #24
ascendantlogic wrote: post #2

Here's the thing, the software-is-eating-the-world explosion really took off in the early 90's (or at least that's when myself and a bunch of friends I knew got into it). All the people that got into writing software back then are aging and most that I know aren't planning to stop. I myself am on the doorstep of my 36th birthday. For those of us that have slogged it out for multiple decades now aren't simply going to…

For a long time I looked around at the relative lack of 40+ developers and founders in my field and considered it worrisome; what will I do when I get to that age? do I need a massive bank of savings just in case? But I think it's also easy to see it as an opportunity. We are staggeringly lucky generation; software is the future and it isn't going the way of mass automation or obsolescence any time soon. There is pro…

Interesting points but a few things I disagree with. Its not so much about offering meaningful insight as it is about being a bro you can hang out with..in a lot of cases..I.e. fitting in with the "culture". So I think the slightly older guys are going to have to find common ground to band together on because they aren't going to mesh culturally with the youngsters necessarily. Other thing about two hundred year, humans will be irrelevant within 40 years, and software development, if we were able to see into the future, will basically look like magic.. for example direct manifestations of simulated realtime imaginations of a multiperson via programmable matter.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#80

Post by ChuckMcM »

jowiar wrote: post #11

One of the biggest indirect causes of ageism I've seen is the traditional career path forced many engineers out of engineering - there is/was an attitude at places like IBM of: "If you want to make bank, you need to go into management or sales". Years later, an engineering crunch makes engineering into "where the money is", but you largely lost a generation of technical experience that took a break of a decade or two…

I think this is a huge part of it, folks who stop "keeping up" with the technology eventually find there is a huge amount of catching up to do. When that happens, especially if there isn't a lot of runway, it can be difficult.

I remark to folks all the time that you can take someone right out of high school, and have them spend about 2000 hrs learning about "computers" and now they are 'hot shot programmers' that are in demand. 2000 hours is a bit more than a year at 5 hours a day factor in that the math, and intro classes aren't necessary for someone who has both done the degree before and spent some years working in the field, and I suspect that any engineer taking a 6 month sabbatical could be right back to current. And completely current with the wisdom of organizational dynamics, work habits honed by years of what worked and what didn't, that person should be like gold.

The place where I feel sad is when someone says "I've been unemployed and spent the last 6 months sending out resumes and no one will call me because I'm old." Had they instead spent that six months re-tuning old talents, sending out the occasional resume, and building stuff, that seems to get people hired regardless of age.

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