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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#61

Post by mattgreenrocks »

yukichan wrote: post #12

Experience is a liability. You learn all kinds of things as an engineer that quickly become obsolete. Even in the web environment. If you're still worried about hasLayout or rounding corners with images, or god forbid using tables for layout, or even setting explicit widths on your web pages instead of responsive media queries, you're adhering to obsolete ways of doing things that are hurting you more than helping. E…

Only in programming do we have the gall to actually cast aspersions about experience.

This sentiment will bite you in the ass.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#62

Post by vonmoltke »

fecak wrote: post #46

Ageism is a real problem, but in my opinion ageism is often cited by job seekers where the problem is something else entirely. In tech, there seems to be quite a bit of discrimination today against employees who have worked for many years at the same position, and that discrimination is typically aimed at large environments. Startups seem to be ok with hiring older engineers who bounced around and worked in startups…

That makes a presumption that someone who spent 25 years at the same employer stagnated. I spent nearly 10 years at my first employer, but in that time I had three different positions. On my resume I have started listing it as three separate positions, which seems to confuse some people but is an accurate portrayal of my time there. I do not think one employer == one role is an accurate assumption and that "10 jobs over the past 25 years" vs. '25 years at the same department of the same company" is a false dichotomy that assumes people like me do not exist.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#63

Post by ascendantlogic »

yukichan wrote: post #12

Experience is a liability. You learn all kinds of things as an engineer that quickly become obsolete. Even in the web environment. If you're still worried about hasLayout or rounding corners with images, or god forbid using tables for layout, or even setting explicit widths on your web pages instead of responsive media queries, you're adhering to obsolete ways of doing things that are hurting you more than helping. E…

Your comment is your perceived reality, and quite frankly it's wrong. If experience is a liability then the end-game of that line of thinking is there should be zero schooling or learning of any sort. If you're not learning everything from the ground up by yourself you're getting someone else's preconceived notions drilled into your head.

I'm sure you can see how this line of thinking leads to a total logical breakdown. The issue I think you are trying to illustrate oh-so-ineloquently is that a lot of developers ossify into "what they know". Then you end up in the "I have this one hammer and everything looks like a nail" issue that is actually real. Keeping up with current trends, tools and design patterns is definitely harder as you get older, but also one of the interesting parts of the job. For those who can't or won't adapt and learn, I'm sure there will be plenty of J2EE apps to maintain over the next few decades just like there are still Cobol apps to maintain now.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#64

Post by Zenst »

jmspring wrote: post #50
Zenst wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mention IBM, one aspect that always bugged me was upto the mid 80's they had a thing about people with beards and was some sort of unwitten policey (never worked for them) that nobody could have a beard and any intervewing with them entailed making sure you had a good shave. I worked with a chap at RAND who went onto work for IBM porting AIX onto the mainframe (least that was the initial project he was joing for)…

At some point, IBM decided catering to wall street was more important than doing real work. Take a look at Cringely's articles on IBM. I've known people that worked as contractors at IBM Almaden and as the transition was occurring, they went out of their way to not end up on the radar -- the impression I got was that management being aware of your project was a risk for being cut. This was even worse for the rank and…

Sounds about right, yes IBM did also change when they focused more in offering services. Became slower in there replies too issues but still got there. One project I came across was issue with SAMBA and logging around the year 2001 and quickly knocked up a wrapper for the SAMBA code to trap and log what was needed to be logged. Took IBM a week to confirm my 30 minute solution would work and was the right approach and then they only ended up at that conclusion after talking to Jeremy Allison.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#65

Post by lispylol »

zomgbbq wrote: post #55

I'm a 40+ engineer in the NYC metro area and I've never felt more in-demand in my life! I think it boils down to a simple idea: computer-science is a dynamic field and THE FUN PART is that you need to always be learning. There are still some colleagues my age who still wax about the days of writing JCL for their mainframe jobs and never evolved past the 80's and perhaps they gave a bad name for others who built on th…

What was the job market like when you graduated from university? Do you think it's easier for you to get a job now than it is 10, 20 years ago? Just curious to hear your thoughts.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#66

Post by jmspring »

Fourty plus segment here, work in a group where the average age is actually mid-30s despite a couple of junior people. Some of us are generalists, some specialists, all have kept abreast of assorted technologies as our careers have progressed.

The narrowest experience is actually amongst the mid/late 20 somethings in our group. I'm not sure if it is that lack of systems experience, not much exposure to C and lower level languages, or what, but they need more mentoring than what I recall needing at the same age.

I'm currently doing that for a couple of them and it is actually both challenging and interesting. Challenging mainly in how to convey tasks, teach them troubleshooting (without the hand holding), and a few other items. Interesting because we all learn differently and seeing how others approach problems either reminds me of my own trials or forces me to think out of the box on how to explain things.

Personally, I've always been a bit of a control freak when it comes to development -- I want to know system level through whatever level I am developing at. This often includes system administration, database management, etc. This has become much more challenging as new technologies come about -- so in those cases, say NoSQL, I will focus on one or two solutions rather than trying to understand each. Build a basis for the concepts, where it is useful, and then test, collect data and reevaluate.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#67

Post by ascendantlogic »

foolinaround wrote: post #33
ascendantlogic wrote: post #2

Here's the thing, the software-is-eating-the-world explosion really took off in the early 90's (or at least that's when myself and a bunch of friends I knew got into it). All the people that got into writing software back then are aging and most that I know aren't planning to stop. I myself am on the doorstep of my 36th birthday. For those of us that have slogged it out for multiple decades now aren't simply going to…

While we can try to disrupt, we are handicapped on the energy or the risks that we need to take to get this done.

Sure, older engineers usually can't take the "live off my friends couch and eat Ramen for a year" risks that 20-somethings can take. There are a lot of problems that can be solved in a 40-50 hour workweek though. Problems that can be solved with near-immediate profitability, etc. Or so my gut tells me.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#68

Post by invalidOrTaken »

na85 wrote: post #41
UK-AL wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most starts ups aren't using C++. 90% of starts up do the "latest compile-to-JS language" thing.

That's because 90% of startups have only the most shallow bit of innovation going on, but they want to seem hip and au currant. So they use whatever the latest angular clone is.

I think a much more charitable interpretation flies: there is a reason people invent new technology (it's better on at least one dimension than the old), and startups aren't held back by legacy considerations.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#69

Post by karcass »

From where I sit, I can't figure out if this is a real thing or just hype. I'm 45, and had exactly zero trouble switching jobs recently, becoming employee #15 (developer #5) at a startup that just did its A-round. They said they liked the fact that I had done a bunch of different stuff, including founding a company in the 90's, and that I had an obvious passion for what they were doing. So, I'm not (yet) freaking out about the bits of gray in my beard.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#70

Post by stefan_kendall3 »

This article might more aptly be titled the brutal ageism of silicon valley. Or perhaps the brutal ageism of startups.

There are red flags that you can easily spot in a job interview or job posting that indicate that the employer wants 80-hour weeks. And who signs up for 80-hour weeks? Naive young people who don't value their time and don't have other commitments, like side projects or family.

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