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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#41

Post by na85 »

UK-AL wrote: post #17
adamnemecek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why do they care so much about hours and not about output? I would kind of understand if this was for some web technologies since older devs might not be up to speed with the latest compile-to-JS language but I can't imagine that someone who has been writing say C++ for the last 20 years would not perform better than someone fresh out of school.

Most starts ups aren't using C++. 90% of starts up do the "latest compile-to-JS language" thing.

That's because 90% of startups have only the most shallow bit of innovation going on, but they want to seem hip and au currant.

So they use whatever the latest angular clone is.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#43

Post by freyrs3 »

UK-AL wrote: post #28
freyrs3 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 90% of starts up do the "latest compile-to-JS language" thing. Sounds like an accurate statistical sampling to me.

Its not meant to be accurate sampling, its hyperbole to prove a point. But you can see for yourself. Have a look at most jobs at start ups, they're always javascript/ruby/python/fancy new framework or mobile apps to reinvent online shopping or web site analytics or something.

You characterize the popular startup languages as being "compile-to-JS" to prove that they're all mostly in the family of dynamic scripting languages?

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#44

Post by [deleted] »

gamegoblin wrote: post #19
daveqr wrote: post #7

Guess what, there's a lot of software being written by people not in their 20s in places like Kansas City, Boston and Nashville. The world doesn't revolve around Silicon Valley.

Yyyyep. Step into one of Walmart's cubicle farms in Bentonville, Arkansas and it's mostly middle aged folks hacking away in C# and VB.

[deleted]

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#45

Post by na85 »

yukichan wrote: post #12

Experience is a liability. You learn all kinds of things as an engineer that quickly become obsolete. Even in the web environment. If you're still worried about hasLayout or rounding corners with images, or god forbid using tables for layout, or even setting explicit widths on your web pages instead of responsive media queries, you're adhering to obsolete ways of doing things that are hurting you more than helping. E…

>implying silly CSS and javascript for your webapp is real programming

See? I can be edgy and abrasive too, with equal amounts of validity in your comment as in my summary of it.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#46

Post by fecak »

Ageism is a real problem, but in my opinion ageism is often cited by job seekers where the problem is something else entirely. In tech, there seems to be quite a bit of discrimination today against employees who have worked for many years at the same position, and that discrimination is typically aimed at large environments. Startups seem to be ok with hiring older engineers who bounced around and worked in startups in the past, but they usually won't give much consideration to a 50 year old who developer has spent the last 25 years at an insurance company or major bank.

Take two 50 year old engineers. The one who has had 10 jobs over the past 25 years is considered infinitely more employable than the one with 25 years at the same department of the same company.

This case isn't ageism, it's the expectation of career stagnation, yet many of those engineers with that 25 year tenure think it is. It's a leftover from the days when loyalty was tied to tenure, and loyalty was valued highly in the hiring criteria. Those days are over. Loyalty is nice, but loyalty that negatively impacts your career options (no learning or improving, inability to use marketable tech skills, etc) is foolish.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#47

Post by UK-AL »

freyrs3 wrote: post #43
UK-AL wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not meant to be accurate sampling, its hyperbole to prove a point. But you can see for yourself. Have a look at most jobs at start ups, they're always javascript/ruby/python/fancy new framework or mobile apps to reinvent online shopping or web site analytics or something.

You characterize the popular startup languages as being "compile-to-JS" to prove that they're all mostly in the family of dynamic scripting languages?

No. To state they are mostly trend based, and superficial.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#48

Post by Zenst »

jowiar wrote: post #11

One of the biggest indirect causes of ageism I've seen is the traditional career path forced many engineers out of engineering - there is/was an attitude at places like IBM of: "If you want to make bank, you need to go into management or sales". Years later, an engineering crunch makes engineering into "where the money is", but you largely lost a generation of technical experience that took a break of a decade or two…

You mention IBM, one aspect that always bugged me was upto the mid 80's they had a thing about people with beards and was some sort of unwitten policey (never worked for them) that nobody could have a beard and any intervewing with them entailed making sure you had a good shave. I worked with a chap at RAND who went onto work for IBM porting AIX onto the mainframe (least that was the initial project he was joing for) and was somewhat begrudged that he would have to shave his beard of just to get the job irespective of his ability.

That has all changed and yet back then was accepted standards from what I could tell. More a insight into culture change but I have not heard of any agisim culture inside IBM before or now, just a beard thing, which has passed.

With that anybody have any insight as to any agisim aspects inside IBM past or present?

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#49

Post by xupybd »

What we need is a movement of `experienced` devs to get out there and form some companies that employ mainly older devs. I'm sure the quality from such a company would be incredible.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#50

Post by jmspring »

Zenst wrote: post #48
jowiar wrote: post #11

One of the biggest indirect causes of ageism I've seen is the traditional career path forced many engineers out of engineering - there is/was an attitude at places like IBM of: "If you want to make bank, you need to go into management or sales". Years later, an engineering crunch makes engineering into "where the money is", but you largely lost a generation of technical experience that took a break of a decade or two…

You mention IBM, one aspect that always bugged me was upto the mid 80's they had a thing about people with beards and was some sort of unwitten policey (never worked for them) that nobody could have a beard and any intervewing with them entailed making sure you had a good shave. I worked with a chap at RAND who went onto work for IBM porting AIX onto the mainframe (least that was the initial project he was joing for)…

At some point, IBM decided catering to wall street was more important than doing real work. Take a look at Cringely's articles on IBM. I've known people that worked as contractors at IBM Almaden and as the transition was occurring, they went out of their way to not end up on the radar -- the impression I got was that management being aware of your project was a risk for being cut. This was even worse for the rank and file full timers.

IBM used to invest in it's employees. My advisor was of a generation where if you saved IBM X dollars in terms of research patents, etc, you were well supported as time went on. Additionally, they had a culture of investing in their employees. I don't know when the change happened... I want to say sometime in the mid/late 90s things shifted and have since.

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