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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#51

Experience is a liability. You learn all kinds of things as an engineer that quickly become obsolete. Even in the web environment. If you're still worried about hasLayout or rounding corners with images, or god forbid using tables for layout, or even setting explicit widths on your web pages instead of responsive media queries, you're adhering to obsolete ways of doing things that are hurting you more than helping. E…

No you are getting downvoted because you are as wrong as you can possibly get. And by the looks of it CSS focused... which I wouldn't even call engineering.

Things rarely go obsolete for one thing. Try explaining why COBAL, FORTRAN, VB6, ColdFusion, or hell more modern stuff like J2EE are still around and in good usage. Things become unpopular, often for good reason, but they don't go obsolete for well over a decade. When something costs over a million dollars to construct and its working OK then theres no reason to get rid of it. Most places can't afford multi million rebuilds because its become unfashionable.

What you also learn as you get older is most modern advances are just rehashes (often poorly as they where written over a month instead of years in a research lab) of existing ideas. Or they are nothing more than a load of premade scripts which are nice (and I'm very thankful for the ones I've used) but if you work with clients or existing stacks those often become problematic.

The new ideas that stick often take 5 years to get rolling, and another 5-10 before they sunset. I wouldn't call that quick by any stretch of the imagination. The hype moves fast... but the technology doesn't.

So separate yourself from the hype and you'll see a world moving a lot slower than you think, the given time the overwhelming torrent of new ideas starts to become a same old shit, different day scenario.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#52
post #30

These stories are starting to wear thin. The people in SF/SV building apps are mostly in their 20s-30s. The people building cool technology are mostly in their 40s-50s.

This generalization is so impossible to make its laughable.

I know 20 year olds making brain wave analysis breakthroughs and 50 year olds making poker apps. And the reverse.

Great work knows no age.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#53
post #8

The odd thing is hiring older workers is generally a great idea. From an organisational perspective programming teams don't scale vary well so hiring less skilled people is generally a terrible long term strategy. Personally, I have worked with a few hundred programmers and I can only name 3 that where competent before 30. Outside the valley you find a plenty of really competent programmers mostly in there late 40's…

Another benefit (I might be selling myself here, watch out) is that older programmers have lived through more issues. Be it management, technical, HR, etc. We have seen more. And some of us know how to steer clear of such issues, and when to interject.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a capability thing. It's a make-you-work-more-hours-for-less-money-than-the-older-engineer thing.

Us older guys discovered long ago that the more hours/week beyond a certain amount you work, the less you accomplish. Besides, I write my best code when I'm jogging. I just type it in when I get back to my desk.

I'm probably old by Valley standards (32), but I took a lot of crap for this view in my twenties. I worked for a consultancy that made money by billing my time out. They'd never tell me I had to work more, but it was heavily implied on multiple occasions that working beyond 40 hours was preferable. I asked why, as I had a series of successful deliveries, and stayed ahead of my workload. They would always terminate the conversation there.

You have to play close attention to the incentive structure of the business. The situation is arguably worse for startups if you're salaried: you're 'changing the world' so it becomes OK for the occasional 50/60 hour week.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#55
I'm a 40+ engineer in the NYC metro area and I've never felt more in-demand in my life! I think it boils down to a simple idea: computer-science is a dynamic field and THE FUN PART is that you need to always be learning.

There are still some colleagues my age who still wax about the days of writing JCL for their mainframe jobs and never evolved past the 80's and perhaps they gave a bad name for others who built on their of years of experience with evolving knowledge.

I decided in 2009 to specialize in mobile, when I realized how impossible it was for the startup I was working for to find any high throughput engineers, let alone high throughput engineers with niche expertise in mobile. I think it is an advantage in some ways during interviews that I can talk about decades of awesome projects I worked on while also being among the first to ship an iPhone app or a top ranking iPad app.

As they say, luck is when preparation meets opportunity. It's my job to make myself lucky.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#56
post #7

Guess what, there's a lot of software being written by people not in their 20s in places like Kansas City, Boston and Nashville. The world doesn't revolve around Silicon Valley.

And that's really the thing a lot of these articles miss. While 20-somethings are making software to automate burrito delivery to other 20-somethings with drones in San Francisco, there's a whole world full of developers solving real problems each day. But it's hard to convince the rest of the world that there's more to the software industry than the Bay Area echo chamber. Edit: I know not all of Silicon Valley is do…

[deleted]

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#57

Here's the thing, the software-is-eating-the-world explosion really took off in the early 90's (or at least that's when myself and a bunch of friends I knew got into it). All the people that got into writing software back then are aging and most that I know aren't planning to stop. I myself am on the doorstep of my 36th birthday. For those of us that have slogged it out for multiple decades now aren't simply going to…

I think ageism in tech will mature along with the industry as well, that was the first wave and a very disruptive one, so this generation has disruption as a modus operandi.

Back then old meant something different as it was a new industry, older people didn't grow up with tech and there was a huge valley/difference between someone that gets tech and a generations before that didn't have it. Everyone below 40-50ish (and definitely everyone in their 30s and below) has had tech around their whole lives and at a more core level as it was new and attracted mainly young people then, but now it attracts all people and has had people working in it for decades (past mid 90s when the internet went mainstream, most are still doing it).

I have to say working for over a decade in tech/programming that most of the really good programmers were over 30s (and all good product developers were either close or over 30), this is because it takes 10 years to get good at anything even if you start in your teens, shipping products for 10 years can't be sped up. Someone out of college at 23-24 needs to work until 33-34 to be really good. To discard that is futile and young programmers might even be scared away from this line of work if there are no future prospects. I also believe it will be detrimental to our entire country as technology is so important now.

Funny enough in game development some of the best I have worked with were actually in their 40s nearing 50s even though it is also seen as a young industry, game companies wouldn't ship anything without experienced developers of 5-10 years, you can't get that experience and then be worthless at 35.

When there is a new industry, the people in it at that time sometimes gain more valuable lower level experience because the platforms/layer is still being constructed. So engine developers that are older were almost always better than younger because they have the core knowledge without the layers of fluff that product cycles can add. Just like back in the day hardware was more prevalent and a population of people that were in it then are sometimes better at it because they were around when it was big.

The market is also solving ageism by paying programmers better than managers many times. Noone will desire to go manage if it is a step down. There was a temporary moment in time when there were NO development managers, sales/marketing/bizdev couldn't manage it. So they NEEDED programmers to go into management to make sense of it and they are good at marketing so it stuck in the collective psyche. That has changed dramatically and I believe this will mature the industry.

Also, let's not confuse ageism for VC funding selectiveness, they will always choose younger because the term sheet is easier with younger that are less knowledgable about value. The 'problem' with older coders is they know they can ship and know their value.

Who knows, if the WhatsApp guys were younger Facebook could have gotten it cheaper. If older developers build more value, VCs will see they can flip for higher amounts and that may also help this perception problem.

Ageism isn't just a problem for older developers, it is a problem for younger developers as well in that they are smart contributors that will be shut off after 10-15 years of solid work, right when most of them will be in their prime and contributing to society.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#58
post #30

These stories are starting to wear thin. The people in SF/SV building apps are mostly in their 20s-30s. The people building cool technology are mostly in their 40s-50s.

This generalization is so impossible to make its laughable. I know 20 year olds making brain wave analysis breakthroughs and 50 year olds making poker apps. And the reverse. Great work knows no age.

> Great work knows no age.

And there's not enough of it to go around.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#59
post #49

What we need is a movement of `experienced` devs to get out there and form some companies that employ mainly older devs. I'm sure the quality from such a company would be incredible.

They exist, but they don't emit quite as much noise as SV companies do. :)

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#60

Experience is a liability. You learn all kinds of things as an engineer that quickly become obsolete. Even in the web environment. If you're still worried about hasLayout or rounding corners with images, or god forbid using tables for layout, or even setting explicit widths on your web pages instead of responsive media queries, you're adhering to obsolete ways of doing things that are hurting you more than helping. E…

Experience also gives you the kind of skills that don't become obsolete, and which can't be learned in just a couple of years of practice: - Writing reliable, maintainable and testable code - Strategies for solving problems that are very large or very difficult - The ability to interact well with developers, product managers, executives, customers, etc. - Knowledge of algorithms and other fundamental things in comput…

Someone much more experienced than I am once said to me that experience doesn't teach you more answers, it teaches you more questions.

The answers change as the landscape evolves, but know which questions to ask...

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