It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#41

Post by briantakita » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:03 PM UTC

It seems like there are needed alternatives to & reforms in secondary education. The secondary education industry needs to remove the fluff and drive more value & relevancy to it's customers.

The premise must be shifted toward students being able to choose their educational path. General requirements are expensive and a waste of money for students. Learning is a lifelong process. Students need to become self-motivated to educate themselves, instead of depending on a curriculum defined by authorities.

General requirements are coercive because the student does not choose to learn these subjects. This means the student will be less engaged.

There needs to be more emphasis on cross-functional & student inspired collaboration. Examples are engineering students collaborate with artists to create something. History students collaborate with theater & film students to create historical movies. Encourage professors, grad students, and undergrad students to collaborate on active research & projects.

Remove the notion that GPA intrinsically means anything other than someone is good at playing the school game. Make the goals more in line with life after college. A portfolio of interesting projects says more about someone than a GPA.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#42

Post by coin » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:05 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #28

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

In the US, few students get much free money these days. Instead they get loans which charge hefty origination fees - like 5 points, and which are almost impossible to discharge via bankruptcy...despite the fact that many of them are backed by insurance and those which are not insured typically compound interest during the time the student is in school (typically on the full principle). The bloat has not been fueled b…

Just work a government job for 10 years and the remainder of your student loan paid for by the tax payers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Service_Loan_Forgivenes...

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#43

Post by _delirium » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:06 PM UTC

wudf wrote: post #9

I didn't realize this was ever possible outside community colleges.

It used to be the norm at state schools, even the flagship 4-year research universities. In-state tuition at UT-Austin in 1960-61 was $100/year, or about $800 in 2014 dollars. Total cost of attendance (including room/board/expenses) was estimated at $925/year, or about $7,500 in 2014 dollars. The University of California system charged no tuition at all until 1970.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#44

Post by wpietri » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:07 PM UTC

wambotron wrote: post #23

Isn't this just basic supply and demand? There are more students trying to go to university now than there were in the 70s. It's basically become the next version of high school socially (and, sadly, also academically in many cases). What we need is a culture that respects people who want to just work at a factory, a big box store, a mall, whatever, without pushing them into doing something they don't want to do (sch…

That would be true only if supply were fixed. Many more people want computers now than in the 70s, but prices are much lower.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#45

Post by jdreaver » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:07 PM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #40

jdreaver wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see several people putting forth the argument that people are the most efficient at allocating money for themselves. That is not true except in an Ayn Rand novel. I've never read an Ayn Rand novel, yet I still agree with that statement. I guess if you call someone an Ayn Rand supporter, that is supposed to discredit them? It's a pretty basic economic principle. If you take $10000 from your bank account, you are l…

I thought the idea that people were better at allocating money from themselves is more like: are you better off if I give you $1k no string attached or $1k specifying down to the cent how you are to use it? Generally speaking people know what their needs are and how to balance them more than complete strangers or even, often, friends. Yes, people have weaknesses, but to try to rule over their weaknesses is highly pat…

> $1k specifying down to the cent how you are to use it

I would classify that as someone else spending money on you, with the superficial detail that the money happened to pass through your bank account.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#46

Post by keeshawn » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:08 PM UTC

bequanna wrote: post #19

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

> It goes to inflating the administrative staffs and inflating the salaries of the highest ranked members of that staff. This. Bureaucratic bloat, no accountability and terrible efficiency. Many Universities are the largest employers in their state. Do our Universities exist to be Research and Educational institutions, or to employ armies of admin workers that push papers?

Different Universities exist for different purposes; often times multiple purposes at once. You can't run a research and educational system without administration. But as a student, I don't see gleaming new facilities or well-paid professors with nice cars. I see everything is crap, the professors are unhappy/underpaid, and the students are depressed and going into huge amounts of debt to pay for all this. Where's all this money going? Who are the ones getting rich from our future?

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#47

Post by mason240 » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:09 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #33

AaronFriel wrote: post #25

The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is wort…

> I see several people putting forth the argument that people are the most efficient at allocating money for themselves. That is not true except in an Ayn Rand novel. I've never read an Ayn Rand novel, yet I still agree with that statement. I guess if you call someone an Ayn Rand supporter, that is supposed to discredit them? It's a pretty basic economic principle. If you take $10000 from your bank account, you are l…

>I guess if you call someone an Ayn Rand supporter, that is supposed to discredit them?

"Ayn Rand supporter" is the new "communist sympathizer" or "pinko."

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#48

Post by keeshawn » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:12 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

I don't know anyone who gets free money for college, except for people who inherit their money or have rich parents. I feel like this is a really central part of your argument, and it doesn't hold water. Every cent we go into debt has to be paid back with interest, and the students who have to foot the bill have zero input in the hiring standards of the companies we have to work for when we graduate.

I think trying to save money by cutting benefits to underpriveliged people is extremely wrongheaded. That money is an investment, it's not just set in fire and wasted. (For that, see the vast taxpayer subsidies we hand out to telecoms and dirty coal companies..)

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#49

Post by HarryHirsch » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:14 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #39

HarryHirsch wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular here to blame the growth of administrative and non-teaching staff on a self-serving bureacracy, but I don't think that's the case, it is due to circumstances. The size of IT infrastructure has grown immensely compared to 30 years back, so you need people to take care of that. My department has four IT support people, and they carry a full workload. The amount of foreign students has grown, consequently y…

Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them. For example, I had to pay a ridiculous $600 per year for the recreation center fee in college. I never once stepped in that place, and they wouldn't let me not pay it. I also never used my college's career center, and I have a job. The services you listed are great; I'm not saying gyms and career centers are bad at all. The problem is that everyone in the…

Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them.

Here's the deal: it's not about you, it's the university that runs the numbers and decides where the scarce funds will go. (Yes, the funds are scarce. The machinist in my old department will retire soon, and the fear is that there won't be a replacement. When he leaves it will be a disaster, there won't be custom-built instrumentation any longer.)

If the rec. center attracts more tuition than it costs to provide there will be a rec. center. If the center for remedial math will prevent an unprepared student from dropping out - if three years more in tuition provides more money than running the courses then there will be remedial math. That's how non-teaching staff are allocated.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#50

Post by keeshawn » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:16 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #45

dnautics wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the idea that people were better at allocating money from themselves is more like: are you better off if I give you $1k no string attached or $1k specifying down to the cent how you are to use it? Generally speaking people know what their needs are and how to balance them more than complete strangers or even, often, friends. Yes, people have weaknesses, but to try to rule over their weaknesses is highly pat…

> $1k specifying down to the cent how you are to use it I would classify that as someone else spending money on you, with the superficial detail that the money happened to pass through your bank account.

Much like how slave owners worked the cotton fields themselves, with the superficial detail of the work having passed through the body of a slave first.