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It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

randalolson.com

21–30 of 205 posts

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#21
I know he is just crunching numbers for unrelated jobs and unrelated colleges and making a conclusion based on that and no real knowledge, but I know tons of people who worked through college.

A lot of them were work study program people, although on the east coast. If you Google the school he talks about, though, you can see they offer a similar program where the college pays half the student's salary: https://finaid.msu.edu/work.asp

So a work study student only costs the employer half as much, and would generally be assumed to be earning a full pay check for working half the time and studying half the time. So it seems very doable. Generally a student with such low income isn't going to be paying full price anyway, so his other number is off too.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#22
There are good arguments to be had about why college is so expensive and exactly how much federal and local money should go to education. It's simply untrue that it's impossible to pay your own way through college - I just did it for the last two and a half of my education. Of course I was making more than minimum wage, but for all but a semester I wasn't making radically above minimum wage (my last summer I worked at a top tech company). I chose to major in an in demand field that I was good at, worked a lot instead of drinking or playing video games, and went to an affordable in state school. Not everybody can make it through college without loans, but if everybody put the same effort into their job and education I did, it should be a worthwhile investment to carry a bit of debt.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#23
Isn't this just basic supply and demand? There are more students trying to go to university now than there were in the 70s. It's basically become the next version of high school socially (and, sadly, also academically in many cases).

What we need is a culture that respects people who want to just work at a factory, a big box store, a mall, whatever, without pushing them into doing something they don't want to do (school). Trade schools also help in this regard. I actually believe we need more push towards trades like plumbing, hvac, and carpentry rather than having more degrees in over-filled areas.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#24
post #11

That chart assumes the only option available is to work minimum wage jobs. Which seems nuts, especially when one takes into consideration the possibility of working full-time during the summer at a real job in one's area of specialization. What you need to chart this is some measure of how much college students actually are earning over time, not a measure of the lowest wage it's legally permissible to pay them.

> What you need to chart this is some measure of how much college students actually are earning over time, not a measure of the lowest wage it's legally permissible to pay them.

That would only be useful if either a) we knew there were no students working minimum wage jobs or b) we were unconcerned with students unable to obtain higher paying jobs

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#25
The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is worthwhile.

The solution though, as some people propose, is not to end subsidies for lower income individuals. I see several people putting forth the argument that people are the most efficient at allocating money for themselves. That is not true except in an Ayn Rand novel. If people were so rational, everyone would go to college because the expected value of college still dwarfs the cost of college. Even for those individuals who would graduate with a significant amount of debt, it is far more worth it to have a degree than not.

So, how would a society reduce the cost of college education without removing the supports that enable low income individuals to enroll? Instead of giving colleges free money, we need to re-orient our structure of providing support for students that need it so that the college has the right incentives. For example, tying the cost of college to graduate's earnings.

Right now, a university gets money merely for pursuing higher levels of enrollment. There is no financial incentive for the university to involve students in student organizations, in leadership roles in their community, in politics or in networking. There is a tenuous link between those activities and pursuing alumni programs, but from what I've seen, alumni programs are a post-hoc solution to funding. A university sees an alumnus has done very well, and seeks to share in their wealth.

Let's simplify: the cost of a college education is 3-5% of aggregate gross income for the rest of your life. People who go on to be tremendously successful will benefit their university, and the university will have an incentive to churn out more tremendously successful people. This tax could be enforced by the IRS, automatically deducted in most cases, and manually reported elsewhere.

Now no one has to worry about the stress of student loans, and universities have every incentive to provide the highest quality education possible to maximize the value of their students. No more flooding the rosters of the university with under- and unqualified adjuncts in order to support higher enrollment numbers at lower costs to pad the pockets of administration. No more cutting student involvement to pad the athletics program.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#26

Isn't this just basic supply and demand? There are more students trying to go to university now than there were in the 70s. It's basically become the next version of high school socially (and, sadly, also academically in many cases). What we need is a culture that respects people who want to just work at a factory, a big box store, a mall, whatever, without pushing them into doing something they don't want to do (sch…

The demand is artificially inflated by the ready availability of loan money.

Many loans cannot legally be denied. This removes what otherwise would be a barrier to frivolous spending.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#27

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

> It goes to inflating the administrative staffs and inflating the salaries of the highest ranked members of that staff. This. Bureaucratic bloat, no accountability and terrible efficiency. Many Universities are the largest employers in their state. Do our Universities exist to be Research and Educational institutions, or to employ armies of admin workers that push papers?

Porque no los dos?

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#28

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

In the US, few students get much free money these days. Instead they get loans which charge hefty origination fees - like 5 points, and which are almost impossible to discharge via bankruptcy...despite the fact that many of them are backed by insurance and those which are not insured typically compound interest during the time the student is in school (typically on the full principle).

The bloat has not been fueled by anything but massive consumer debt foisted on those least experienced with personal finance and with the least work experience and who these days are lucky to find an entry level professional position.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#29

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

> It goes to inflating the administrative staffs and inflating the salaries of the highest ranked members of that staff. This. Bureaucratic bloat, no accountability and terrible efficiency. Many Universities are the largest employers in their state. Do our Universities exist to be Research and Educational institutions, or to employ armies of admin workers that push papers?

It's popular here to blame the growth of administrative and non-teaching staff on a self-serving bureacracy, but I don't think that's the case, it is due to circumstances.

The size of IT infrastructure has grown immensely compared to 30 years back, so you need people to take care of that. My department has four IT support people, and they carry a full workload.

The amount of foreign students has grown, consequently you need people to keep track of immigration requirements that seem to get worse each passing year, and you also need cultural programs, you can't expect people from non-western countries to be thrown into an alien culture and succeed.

The number of non-traditional and first-generation college students has grown, if the student body consists only of middle-class and wealthy people you don't need support staff for the students who teach them how to study.

Then there is career services, these things are expected these days. Back when you knew the major employers, and they had a hiring pipeline at your university.

There is also this competition through facilities, gyms and really fancy dorms are the norm, and those things need looking after.

Anyone who proposes cutting back on administrative staff must give suggestions how to deal with all these issues.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#30

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

I think the problem is the loans. It drives prices up. Because when college prices go up, kids just get a bigger credit. It looks so far in the future, at 18 they don't really know if they will be able pay them.
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