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What You Can't Say (2004)

paulgraham.com

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Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#111

Post by gnaritas »

jmj42 wrote: post #27
gnaritas wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't; I've always showed my child the non-sense others believe without cause. Now 20, she has a solid grasp on reality and a firm bullshit detector.

We did (see above). Both of my children (13 and 18) also have a solid grasp on reality and firm bullshit detectors. I suspect belief in Santa, as a child, has little to do with it.

It's good that they turned out OK despite being misled by their parents; you may find that OK because tradition, I find it simply a form of lying, regardless of whether you actively said anything or not.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#112

Post by mikeash »

hobs wrote: post #55
brd wrote: post #30

"Do you have any opinions that you would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your peers?" I think this test is fascinating when applied to the Musk vs. Gates debate from yesterday. How taboo is it to say forget charity? I know I feel uncomfortable with saying: 'forget the poor, we can fix them after we've figured out how to create a sustainable form of first world living' and yet that seems like a far more…

I had this thought this morning, though of a slightly different tone. The radio talking head mentioned that they were going to interview an anti-civilizationist, someone who apparently thinks that developed society is unsustainable and will be the end of us all. Apparently he advocates for a return to pre-civilization? I immediately thought, "We need to be able to leap forward, not backward. If this involves some sac…

It seems like a completely pointless stance, anyway. If he's right, we'll revert to pre-civilization regardless. No sense trying to influence it!

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#113

Post by exue »

groby_b wrote: post #100
skylan_q wrote: post #7

This is a great article. If you believe everything you're supposed to now, how can you be sure you wouldn't also have believed everything you were supposed to if you had grown up among the plantation owners of the pre-Civil War South, or in Germany in the 1930s-- or among the Mongols in 1200, for that matter? Odds are you would have. This is lost on most people. You'll just hear "of course it was wrong!" and this poi…

> But if it was obvious that it was wrong, why did masses of people agree to this? They wouldn't have done it if they also saw it as wrong. Because we, as a species, learn . Yes, value systems might change. But it seems, at least to me, that they rarely (not never, but rarely) revert back to older norms. We probably are "wrong" about things we believe right now, too. Some of the beliefs will be considered wrong in th…

It goes beyond learning though - I'd say we actually need those changed circumstances and advanced technologies for those changes to happen. Trying to adapt a 2010 US morality or system of government to a 1200 Mongols environment or a prehistoric one probably would just be a huge mismatch and not work.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#114

Post by dionidium »

cryoshon wrote: post #29
skylan_q wrote: post #7

This is a great article. If you believe everything you're supposed to now, how can you be sure you wouldn't also have believed everything you were supposed to if you had grown up among the plantation owners of the pre-Civil War South, or in Germany in the 1930s-- or among the Mongols in 1200, for that matter? Odds are you would have. This is lost on most people. You'll just hear "of course it was wrong!" and this poi…

It's difficult to overstate the power of propaganda. I think an apt comparison here is the public's opinion of the Iraq war during the build up. The media told people what to think, and, by and large, they thought what they were told, or were cowed into silence. Not that it mattered-- millions protested anyway, and were ignored. To be blunt, the majority of people didn't even have the capacity to say "but this is wro…

The media told people what to think, and, by and large, they thought what they were told, or were cowed into silence. Not that it mattered-- millions protested anyway, and were ignored.

Which is it? Were we cowed or did people make up their own minds to the extent that millions protested and (presumably) millions more disagreed? And why characterize the people against the war as freethinkers, while assuming those who supported it were tricked? I know a lot of people who were against the invasion who couldn't tell you five things about the entire region. I wouldn't consider them freethinkers. It doesn't feel like you've actually said anything in this comment.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#115

Post by r00fus »

avar wrote: post #65
morganherlocker wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very true. My state just passed a law with overwhelming support that allows people to have guns in bars again. I did not expect it to be controversial to believe that drinking + guns + crowded rooms was a bad idea, but apparently I was wrong.

From the perspective of someone living in mainland Europe the legislation around bars in the U.S. is quite baffling. I was over in San Francisco last summer and walked out of a bar pint in hand to tag along for a cigarette break, we were promptly chastised about it. I apologized saying that I'd briefly forgotten what continent I was on. It's also not unusual to see children milling around with their parents in bars i…

> If you ban guns in bars then someone who carries a gun around anyway will have to stash it somewhere before they arrive, or risk breaking the law.

Coat check for guns? A peace tie (zip-tie) on the holster? It's not like this isn't a well understood problem.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#116

Post by bradleysmith »

avar wrote: post #65
morganherlocker wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very true. My state just passed a law with overwhelming support that allows people to have guns in bars again. I did not expect it to be controversial to believe that drinking + guns + crowded rooms was a bad idea, but apparently I was wrong.

From the perspective of someone living in mainland Europe the legislation around bars in the U.S. is quite baffling. I was over in San Francisco last summer and walked out of a bar pint in hand to tag along for a cigarette break, we were promptly chastised about it. I apologized saying that I'd briefly forgotten what continent I was on. It's also not unusual to see children milling around with their parents in bars i…

To be fair, I've never trimmed stray clothing thread, monkeyed with a car part, or fixed, well, anything with my concealed carry .357. It makes a lot more sense to disallow firearms in bars as they have no constructive purpose at all. The same is not true for a swiss army knife; it is most certainly both a tool and a weapon.

Still, I totally agree with you. The stringent attitude towards alcohol-serving in the United States does stigmatize it's consumption quite a bit, and, IMO, causes a decrease in moderation and safety when compared to a more relaxed Europe.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#117

Post by sillysaurus3 »

oskarth wrote: post #110
ggreer wrote: post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

While you may be right that future generations will condemn us for them, none of those things are remotely controversial enough. You can say any of them in almost any setting and people will mostly yawn. Many people think prisons should be banished, or at least severely limited (especially US prisons); there are plenty of popular vegetarians out there; assisted suicided is just your average polarizing subject. This i…

It's pretty interesting to think that most people who like someone might hate them if only they knew what their true thoughts were, and that someone can be acutely aware of what most people would hate them for.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#118

Post by huherto »

ggreer wrote: post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

Agree on all counts. I just hope 3 happens during my life but not 2. I love steak.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#119

Post by jaibot »

huherto wrote: post #118
ggreer wrote: post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

Agree on all counts. I just hope 3 happens during my life but not 2. I love steak.

Synthetic meat. Soon, I hope, as a vegetarian who is acutely aware that meat is tasty.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#120

Post by jaibot »

ggreer wrote: post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

This essay was one the things that made me decide to become a vegetarian a year ago.
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