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A simple way to "get more people to code"

yosefk.com

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Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#61

Post by rokhayakebe »

streptomycin wrote: post #52
rokhayakebe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think EVERYONE should learn to code just as everyone learns ARITHMETIC. Imagine a world where only a few of us knew how to balance an account, or a few of us understood how much will they have left if they spent x amount at the gas station. Now imagine a world where everybody has a basic ability to develop software. All the above being said, the beginning is not programming, but learning how to Think, Read, and Wri…

Imagine a world where only a few of us knew how to balance an account, or a few of us understood how much will they have left if they spent x amount at the gas station. You're living in it. Math illiteracy is very common.

But Arithmetic is not. I am not making the case for Math, but Arithmetic. I am not making the case for Computer Science, but programming.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#62

Post by Toenex »

dropit_sphere wrote: post #19
jonsen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that imply that there is a shortage of programmers worth their salary?

Then...drop their salary? Are these companies being run by four-year-olds? "We lured developers with huge compensation packages because we only want rockstars, but we end up losing money on them!" Which is it? Is it a highly valuable skill that everyone should learn (why doesn't the company owner learn it then?), or is it "sneaky non-unionized-and-colluded-against-by-Google-and-Apple developers aren't "worth" their s…

Yes. In the start-up world I suspect that crap idea or no market are more common reasons for failure than bad software.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#63

Post by dleskov »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #33

Let's get "more people to code well" first. Then let's get companies to compensate their employees fairly (i.e. more proportional to the amount of cash they generate with their if and for loops). Then maybe we can start thinking about enrolling more people in the game.

I second the first and last statements. As far as compensation goes, here, an average Java developer makes a least 3x of what is the average salary for the region in which I live. Yet all local companies are complaining about the quality of job applicants and interns. Those high salaries seem to be attracting quite a few lazy people seeking easy money.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#64

Post by ForHackernews »

ronaldx wrote: post #16
doctorwho wrote: post #8

After 25+ years of coding and reading other people's code I would submit that the REAL problem is that the people who do code don't do it very well, some are downright stupid. There are a lot of people out there who will never be able to produce anything beyond "Hello World" and some will struggle to get that far. What if we focused early on identifying kids with good problem solving skill and other aptitudes that mi…

I don't agree with your approach at all. You seem to start with an assumption that problem solving skill is innate and cannot be learned, which I strongly dispute. If you focus early on identifying kids with good skill, you might be pushing kids down the wrong path for them, or you might be excluding a lot of kids who will develop greater skill a little later, or exclude those with great creativity that could be appl…

Innate ability may be a large factor in programming success. See: http://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-fr...

If true, it would explain the apparent contrast between many programmers' attitude of "C'mon, this is easy! I can't believe they pay me to do this." and non-programmers view of coding as abstruse and frustrating.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#65

Post by eliteraspberrie »

We're told that the software profession must be made more accessible, and that programming should be taught to all children. Great, I agree. No child without the command line!

Let's also consider another industry: cars. Car ownership per capita in the US is greater than the rate of households with Internet access -- 0.769 versus 0.748. [1,2] So professions related to cars have greater impact on people's lives, on average, than professions related to computers.

Furthermore, most car owners would agree that maintenance is expensive, very expensive. Not to mention the fact that most mechanics are men. Nobody has proposed that everyone should be a mechanic, let alone a mechanical engineer. The President has not called for more mechanics, more women mechanics, or for relaxed visa requirements for foreign mechanics. These things would be seen as ridiculous.

Until programmers form a regulated professional body, with its own lobby, they will continue to be singled out by the various lobbies of the IT and social justice industries (strange allies).

[1] 240 million car owners in a population of 312 million, in 2011. http://wardsauto.com/ar/world_vehicle_population_110815

[2] 74.8% in 2012. https://www.census.gov/hhes/computer/publications/2012.html

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#66

Post by jimktrains2 »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #31
_yosefk wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think a few steps further down these lines and you'll be able to separate the people worrying about "teaching everyone to code" into evil (companies looking for cheap labor) and stupid (people thinking there are problems that need solving where there aren't any and it is "solutions" that breed problems, in this case a surplus of professionals in one area at the expense of other areas and the workers who've needlessly…

I take offense to your " 'teaching everyone to code' into evil and stupid" comment. When I say "everyone should know how to code" what I mean is that everyone should know how to open a spreadsheet and do calculations, conditionals, iterative calculations, &c. From there I feel it's natural to then teach them a little of something along the lines of Python to do some simple calculations and algorithms. I mean that peo…

Thanks to everyone who downvoted without expressing your opinion. It's great to have a discussion with you!

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#68

Post by FLUX-YOU »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #60
FLUX-YOU wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now imagine a world where everybody has a basic ability to develop software. Pointless, I think. They'll only be able to make the most basic of software. Existing programmers complain about bad code and naive solutions already. This will only compound the issue. I'm not sure if programming teaches critical thinking, reading and writing any better than the existing subjects we have.

Pointless, I think. They'll only be able to make the most basic of software. If every doctor could write their own SQL queries against their own data, if the dentist office manager could pull the list of customers who live within 2 miles, if the marketeer can put his own static site very quickly, if the scientist can write code the parses his text and automatically pull related text from wikipedia and links to releva…

They get us to do it because we have more practice. They're going to be spending a bunch of time hacking away at a query or parse to make sure they have everything or else they might have missed some of that data. At worst, they make a decision with that bad parse or data. Language gotchas are a real pain for people at this stage. I agree it's not rocket science and any of those examples possess the capability to learn that sort of thing. The key difference between a doctor and I is confidence that we did it right.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#69

Post by doctorwho »

ronaldx wrote: post #16
doctorwho wrote: post #8

After 25+ years of coding and reading other people's code I would submit that the REAL problem is that the people who do code don't do it very well, some are downright stupid. There are a lot of people out there who will never be able to produce anything beyond "Hello World" and some will struggle to get that far. What if we focused early on identifying kids with good problem solving skill and other aptitudes that mi…

I don't agree with your approach at all. You seem to start with an assumption that problem solving skill is innate and cannot be learned, which I strongly dispute. If you focus early on identifying kids with good skill, you might be pushing kids down the wrong path for them, or you might be excluding a lot of kids who will develop greater skill a little later, or exclude those with great creativity that could be appl…

I didn't say "push" I said "encourage to explore" and I didn't mention any kind of cut off age where educators would stop evaluating kids, this would have to be a continual process not the "GATTACA" style career predetermination you fear.

Realistically, there is a segment of the population that will never be able to acquire skills that good coders have, or have acquired, regardless of how much you try to teach them. The "Hello World" crowd. I went to university with some of them.

If you stop and REALLY think about it "everyone should learn to code" makes about as much sense as "everyone should learn to repair their own car". Would everyone like to be able to repair their own car? Sure. Would this be a useful skill to have? Sure. Is everyone capable? Absolutely not.

How about this.. go and spend a few hundred hours to acquire a skill you may never use again. It has to be one with which you have had no previous exposure or proficiency. Sounds a bit stupid when it's put that way doesn't it? That's essentially what "everyone should learn to code" really sounds like.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#70

Post by doctorwho »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #60
FLUX-YOU wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now imagine a world where everybody has a basic ability to develop software. Pointless, I think. They'll only be able to make the most basic of software. Existing programmers complain about bad code and naive solutions already. This will only compound the issue. I'm not sure if programming teaches critical thinking, reading and writing any better than the existing subjects we have.

Pointless, I think. They'll only be able to make the most basic of software. If every doctor could write their own SQL queries against their own data, if the dentist office manager could pull the list of customers who live within 2 miles, if the marketeer can put his own static site very quickly, if the scientist can write code the parses his text and automatically pull related text from wikipedia and links to releva…

How about this... go and spend a few hundred hours to acquire a skill you may never use again. It has to be one with which you have had no previous exposure or proficiency.

It sounds a bit stupid when it's put that way doesn't it?

That's essentially what "everyone should learn to code" boils down to.

There just isn't going to be any meaningful return on the mental investment unless coding is going to be your new career.

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