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A simple way to "get more people to code"

yosefk.com

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Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#51

Post by netcan »

I think there's some moral issues in taking taxes from people who earn $40k and giving them to people who earn $100k.

Anyway, I think the issue of "not enough programers" is different to "not enough people can code." To keep beating the old writing analogy. One is "not enough scribes" and the other is "not enough literacy." At some point in history professional writing and literacy stopped being substitutes for one another.

Normal literate people didn't compete with novelists. Or looking at it another way, printing presses and literate public completely removed the need for scribes and (I think not coincidentally) we got lot more writers shortly after: novelists, pamphleteers and scholars.

So nurses who can code will not replace the programmers who wrote healthcare.gov but they might do different useful things.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#52

Post by streptomycin »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #27
doctorwho wrote: post #8

After 25+ years of coding and reading other people's code I would submit that the REAL problem is that the people who do code don't do it very well, some are downright stupid. There are a lot of people out there who will never be able to produce anything beyond "Hello World" and some will struggle to get that far. What if we focused early on identifying kids with good problem solving skill and other aptitudes that mi…

I think EVERYONE should learn to code just as everyone learns ARITHMETIC. Imagine a world where only a few of us knew how to balance an account, or a few of us understood how much will they have left if they spent x amount at the gas station. Now imagine a world where everybody has a basic ability to develop software. All the above being said, the beginning is not programming, but learning how to Think, Read, and Wri…

Imagine a world where only a few of us knew how to balance an account, or a few of us understood how much will they have left if they spent x amount at the gas station.

You're living in it. Math illiteracy is very common.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#53

Post by icebraining »

dropit_sphere wrote: post #35

This piece is genius. For those who don't get it, it's dripping in sarcasm . Not to say that the author doesn't think it would work (he may have some misgivings about just throwing money at developers), but that he's calling bullshit on the motives of those talking about "learn to code." People are paid in more than just money. There's job security, interesting work, autonomy, and (more motivating than people think)…

There are things more important than writing code (even good, well-engineered code aimed at solving real problems). There's: playing with your dog, going for a run, spending time with your family, and going out for a night with friends. People have chosen all these things over learning to code. Let them.

This doesn't strike me as a particular good argument; for one, it implies that it's OK to not let people chose less important things than writing code (say, watch reality TV).

But besides, who exactly is trying to remove that choice? I don't see any advocate of "learning to code" saying we should force people to code.

Is it not a BIG RED FLAG that the prime message is "Everyone should learn to code...well, everyone but me, anyway."?

Maybe. But then again, many of those pushing the message are programmers themselves.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#54

Post by dropit_sphere »

nathas wrote: post #49
dropit_sphere wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is an understandable way to look at the problem." Who says it's a problem?

The author. It's the heading of the first paragraph after the disclaimer.

The author also has scare quotes in the title and refers to the shortage as "supposed."

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#56

Post by null_ptr »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #31
_yosefk wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think a few steps further down these lines and you'll be able to separate the people worrying about "teaching everyone to code" into evil (companies looking for cheap labor) and stupid (people thinking there are problems that need solving where there aren't any and it is "solutions" that breed problems, in this case a surplus of professionals in one area at the expense of other areas and the workers who've needlessly…

I take offense to your " 'teaching everyone to code' into evil and stupid" comment. When I say "everyone should know how to code" what I mean is that everyone should know how to open a spreadsheet and do calculations, conditionals, iterative calculations, &c. From there I feel it's natural to then teach them a little of something along the lines of Python to do some simple calculations and algorithms. I mean that peo…

>>Indeed any consistent argument in favor of motivating people to program would at least mention aging programmers and no such mention is to be found, or at least I never noticed it.

>I have no idea what you mean

Our industry has a fierce bias against older people, and indeed keeping an eye on HN for relevant stories shows that even top talent can be left to hang. If you're around at a company for long enough you'll see how some senior folk are fired and replaced by fresh college grads, sometimes after grooming those newbies for a while.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#57

Post by dropit_sphere »

icebraining wrote: post #53
dropit_sphere wrote: post #35

This piece is genius. For those who don't get it, it's dripping in sarcasm . Not to say that the author doesn't think it would work (he may have some misgivings about just throwing money at developers), but that he's calling bullshit on the motives of those talking about "learn to code." People are paid in more than just money. There's job security, interesting work, autonomy, and (more motivating than people think)…

There are things more important than writing code (even good, well-engineered code aimed at solving real problems). There's: playing with your dog, going for a run, spending time with your family, and going out for a night with friends. People have chosen all these things over learning to code. Let them. This doesn't strike me as a particular good argument; for one, it implies that it's OK to not let people chose les…

I don't see any advocate of "learning to code" saying we should force people to code.

Perhaps not. But anything a teacher tells a learner to do is basically force. What choice does the learner have? They don't know any better.

This would be fine if what they were teaching were worthwhile. But it won't be: it will be "How to use Rails" (rather than, say, Ruby) or "How to use Bootstrap" rather than actually learning CSS.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#58

Post by jimktrains2 »

null_ptr wrote: post #56
jimktrains2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take offense to your " 'teaching everyone to code' into evil and stupid" comment. When I say "everyone should know how to code" what I mean is that everyone should know how to open a spreadsheet and do calculations, conditionals, iterative calculations, &c. From there I feel it's natural to then teach them a little of something along the lines of Python to do some simple calculations and algorithms. I mean that peo…

>>Indeed any consistent argument in favor of motivating people to program would at least mention aging programmers and no such mention is to be found, or at least I never noticed it. >I have no idea what you mean Our industry has a fierce bias against older people, and indeed keeping an eye on HN for relevant stories shows that even top talent can be left to hang. If you're around at a company for long enough you'll…

Absolutely none of that has anything to do with what I said.

Also, just because people have shop class doesn't mean that everyone will become a carpenter.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#59

Post by jes5199 »

nathas wrote: post #32

This is an understandable way to look at the problem, but I think it's largely wrong. You need to capture minds while they're still very open to learning. People are locking themselves into career paths by the time they graduate college, at least in America. Student loans means getting a second degree in something you rather do is largely impossible since you have to start paying down your debt when you graduate. A h…

the student loan system is a mess, but with income-based repayment, taking on extra debt doesn't actually increase people's monthly payments until they actually get a high-paying job.

Re: A simple way to "get more people to code"

#60

Post by rokhayakebe »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #46
rokhayakebe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think EVERYONE should learn to code just as everyone learns ARITHMETIC. Imagine a world where only a few of us knew how to balance an account, or a few of us understood how much will they have left if they spent x amount at the gas station. Now imagine a world where everybody has a basic ability to develop software. All the above being said, the beginning is not programming, but learning how to Think, Read, and Wri…

>Now imagine a world where everybody has a basic ability to develop software. Pointless, I think. They'll only be able to make the most basic of software. Existing programmers complain about bad code and naive solutions already. This will only compound the issue. I'm not sure if programming teaches critical thinking, reading and writing any better than the existing subjects we have.

Pointless, I think. They'll only be able to make the most basic of software.

If every doctor could write their own SQL queries against their own data, if the dentist office manager could pull the list of customers who live within 2 miles, if the marketeer can put his own static site very quickly, if the scientist can write code the parses his text and automatically pull related text from wikipedia and links to relevant papers written between 1738 and 1776. Why must they wait for you and I to do this? Why the wait?

I'm not sure if programming teaches critical thinking, reading and writing any better than the existing subjects we have.

My point is that learning critical thinking, reading, and writing is what we should focus on because it ultimately makes better programmers.

For what is a good program if not a well thought through problem (logic) turned into a few lines of text (writing, reading) that provide the solution.

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