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Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

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Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#131

Post by MaysonL »

tptacek wrote: post #82
znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

I don't even know how to respond to the idea that teenagers breaking into phone switches and harassing people, buying Pantera CDs on stolen credit cards, stealing ESNs from other people's phones to make calls on someone else's bill, and rm'ing Unix boxes are somehow more honorable than adults running businesses. The "hackers" FD's moderator is talking about are the ones I'm talking about. They aren't MIT students ord…

They're undoubtably more honorable than the guys running one of finance’s leading law firms – Dewey & LeBoeuf.

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2014/03/dealbook-misunderstands...

Not to mention the scum like Angelo Mozillo who gave us the financial crisis.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#132

Post by tptacek »

MaysonL wrote: post #131
tptacek wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know how to respond to the idea that teenagers breaking into phone switches and harassing people, buying Pantera CDs on stolen credit cards, stealing ESNs from other people's phones to make calls on someone else's bill, and rm'ing Unix boxes are somehow more honorable than adults running businesses. The "hackers" FD's moderator is talking about are the ones I'm talking about. They aren't MIT students ord…

They're undoubtably more honorable than the guys running one of finance’s leading law firms – Dewey & LeBoeuf. http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2014/03/dealbook-misunderstands... Not to mention the scum like Angelo Mozillo who gave us the financial crisis.

Sure. They're more honorable than mass murderers too.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#133

Post by tptacek »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #123
tptacek wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're willing to accuse me of being dishonest or ignorant, so I think you should be willing to be specific about what you're talking about. Which cool kids are you referring to?

I don't know how to make it more clear that I wasn't actually referring to any specific "cool kids" and that my statement was not intended to be taken literally. Claim: for any given period of the hacker scene, saying it largely amounted to nothing more than things like carding and harassment is false, and this statement would only be made by someone who either: (a) was not exposed, or exposed only to a poor sample,…

No, I know you to be wrong about that. It's also worth remembering that many of the smartest people in the '90s hack scene came from the virus scene.

What I don't understand is how someone who was around in the 90s could manage to mythologize a bunch of teenagers using semicolons and pipe filters to pop shells on boxes and dump mail spools.

Here's the part where you tell me that you once knew a hacker who never rm'd a box. Why am I meant to care about that? There was zero correlation in the 90s between skill and care for other people's data.

Your opening comment was, "sounds like someone wasn't in the cool kids group". Now you've moved the goalposts; turns out you weren't talking about the "cool kids" at all. But it doesn't matter whether we're talking specifics or the broader issue of whether hackers were more or less moral in the 1990s: you're comprehensively wrong. Consider resetting the "tptacek is always full of shit" bit that is obviously stuck in your brain.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#134

Post by domdip »

tptacek wrote: post #82
znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

I don't even know how to respond to the idea that teenagers breaking into phone switches and harassing people, buying Pantera CDs on stolen credit cards, stealing ESNs from other people's phones to make calls on someone else's bill, and rm'ing Unix boxes are somehow more honorable than adults running businesses. The "hackers" FD's moderator is talking about are the ones I'm talking about. They aren't MIT students ord…

We called them 'script kiddies'. I don't think they qualify as hackers any more than someone who spends time on 4chan and runs LOIC.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#135

Post by 666c6f »

znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

That is the point. We should stop calling founders and businessmen hackers. A hacker is a person dedicated to technology and freedom. A silent hero, fighting everyday against against oppression, law and order. A person whose sole interest is keeping information free and accessible to everyone. Maybe he is not the best guy in socializing and communicating his interests and maybe some hackers are doing pranks and breaking your phone switches. But these are the people who are the front line the only ones who are willing to carry the fight for freedom and equality into the internet and against the people who are now calling themselves "Hackers". Businessmen, lawyers and founders all those people which interests are to make money and obey. YOU silicon valley guys aren't hackers anymore. you have become the mass you have sold your ambitions. I'm going to shed a tear now for all of you. Hacking is about rebellion hacking is keeping the internet free of scum like fascists and governments Hacking is the way of autonomous thinking. Hacking is keeping freedom in your heart and helping the oppressed. Hacking is so much more then "finding the best way to optimize your workflow"

this is what a hacker stands for https://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Internet_censorship_bills/barl...

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#136

Post by prawn »

debacle wrote: post #71
jinzo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who had to deal with legal troubles when running a user facing service I can say that it's not that easy if you don't have resources (or knowledge/time) to response correctly to the legal inquiries. For example, a relatively small (by internet standards) "local" forum has a somehow dedicated (it's not their full time job) 3 man legal team that answers all the legal inquiries. If I add one of the latest in…

The only reason legal bullying works is because so many people capitulate at the first sign of conflict.

My strategy, if I can't talk people out of their legal threats and requests for content removal, is to replace the content with something like "Content removed at the request of [fullname]." I figure that anyone likely to have taken warning from the original content having find it on Google will potentially get the same from that notice. e.g., if they're asking for stuff to be removed, maybe there's something going on.

Source: I've run a public forum with anonymous posting for about 10 years and get regular legal/removal threats. Had four in one day the other week. None have ever proceeded beyond a threatening letter from a lawyer and most don't get past "I've printed this out and I'm taking it to my lawyer."

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#137

Post by pea »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #68
znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

>>> 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain morale conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Agreed. There was a certain "code" people adhered to. Even groups like LOD wouldn't release exploits because they feared people would use them for nefarious purposes.

Yeah but blackhats ala lod / h0no / el8 routinely released exploits that were leaked or stolen. They just hated full-disclosure with a passion as they saw it as too corporate.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#138

Post by eruditely »

tptacek wrote: post #119
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're taking it too literally, I wasn't referring to anyone. I explained the point in my previous post. If your comment reflects sincerely held beliefs that accurately represent the scene as it was, I think it's safe to say you were not a part of it. Your derision of that culture is either out of dishonesty or ignorance.

You're willing to accuse me of being dishonest or ignorant, so I think you should be willing to be specific about what you're talking about. Which cool kids are you referring to?

You are dragging your feet so hard here, oh my god it's unbearable.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#139

Post by mpyne »

debacle wrote: post #71
jinzo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who had to deal with legal troubles when running a user facing service I can say that it's not that easy if you don't have resources (or knowledge/time) to response correctly to the legal inquiries. For example, a relatively small (by internet standards) "local" forum has a somehow dedicated (it's not their full time job) 3 man legal team that answers all the legal inquiries. If I add one of the latest in…

The only reason legal bullying works is because so many people capitulate at the first sign of conflict.

That's what drives a lot of international politics too.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#140

Post by drblast »

JPKab wrote: post #48
brianmwaters_hn wrote: post #32

What a shame; I just recently started taking on an interest in computer security and signed up for the list. In just the few weeks I was on there, I learned about a vulnerability in a device I had recently bought. I am cherishing the opportunity (which I haven't found time for yet) to walk through my first exploit! As a newcomer I'm not really sure what John's referring to, though. Too bad...

I'll offer my take on his "industry that shouldn't have become an industry". One of the biggest drivers of cash into information security hires is government regulation. Otherwise, a lot of these companies could give a shit if they lose private data. Enter the information security specialist who has no fucking clue how to program or do anything remotely technical. They went out and got their CISSP cert, and now they…

Hey now, that's really unfair. Nobody I know who has a CISSP cert got it willingly.

Other than that though, carry on.

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