Live data from Hacker News

The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

modelviewculture.com

231–240 of 258 posts

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#231
post #221

There are a lot of very provoked males in these comments. Could this possibly correlate to the article which is based on experiences from someone not being a male in tech? It seems easier for most to get into lengthy counter arguments about why it isn't like the article states, rather than acknowledge that there might actually be a real problem here. How come so many female tech people seem to share these same experi…

> How come so many female tech people seem to share these same experiences if it isn't structural? Selection bias. Women who have ordinary experiences don't write angry blog posts about them, or don't get upvotes.

Or they don't write blog posts because they don't want to have to endure the flame war that follows.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#232

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

You have a kid, you look for a nanny to look after him. You put it on news-paper, there's a 45 year old dude who comes offering his services to look after your kid. Now tell me that you're so awesome that you'll not think what you are thinking right now. Exactly. People use stereotypes to save time. Many stereotypes are wrong, because you'll get them from CNN or Fox. People don't get on the news for being normal. Whe…

>You have a kid, you look for a nanny to look after him. You put it on news-paper, there's a 45 year old dude who comes offering his services to look after your kid.

>Now tell me that you're so awesome that you'll not think what you are thinking right now.

Before that second line my mental image was close to Mr. Rogers, after that line it's a huge guy in a prison jumpsuit covered in tattoos. I don't think either one is what you were going for. Maybe a pedophile? I don't have a stereotype for those.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#233
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the same respect I treat my best friend? Well, first: my best friend is a woman. And could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a sexist joke? My aforementioned best friend (who I have had this conversation with) as well as most of the women friends I've had this conversation with agree that things like "dongle" jokes are hilarious . So are racist jokes (do you seriously not tell any racist jokes? Ever?…

> but you're right: young. You forgot entitled. Also - racist jokes, really? Tell us a good one.

How does every racist joke start?

(Pause)

looks over both shoulders

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not using this data to treat people differently: If I'm alone at 3AM and you come out of nowhere, I wouldn't care if you were blue, green, black or white. I wouldn't trust anyone equally. My point was, that one can understand how people think and stereotype given the data, as long as the data isn't corrupted. But coming back to the data: Sure, the majority of people aren't criminals, but the few who are, belong t…

What are you saying here? People who suffer from discrimination should just learn to understand why they get stereotyped and be more tolerant about it? That's extremely self serving and entitled. If you're in a position of privilege, it's up to you to make the effort to treat everyone as fairly as you can. It's up to you to help break down the unfair boundaries that benefit you. It's your responsibility to do that. O…

They're saying that you shouldn't pretend problems don't exist if you want them fixed. Problems like poverty, crime rate, sentencing rate. They are real, they have real effects, they shouldn't be discounted. Arguing that most people aren't in jail is just a way of ignoring the problem.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#235
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Racism (sexism/classism/etc) is not about race The popular, and dictionary, definition of "racism" is "hatred or intolerance of another race or other races".

The definition of "AIDS" is that it's a disease, and yet what causes it is a virus. Your parent has pointed out the source or racism/sexism/classism/etc, not the end result. Identify the source, cure the disease.

Sources of racism come from all kinds of things: colonialism, ethnic scapgoating, economic competition between ethnicities, ethno-nationalism, etc. The post I'm replying to seems to suggest it's not possible to be racist towards whites ("For this reason alone ... there is no symmetry in these biases"). I'm merely pointing out that by the popular, and dictionary definition of racism, it's possible. If black youths target a white youth for a beating because he/she is white, for example, it would be reasonably characterized as "racist" even though the racism faced by blacks, systematically, is greater.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#236
post #217
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, wear something that only a coder would wear. You mean a dress? I am a coder and that's what I wear. Yeah, you should definitely wear that next time.

Did you read the part you quoted? Wear something that only a coder would wear. I've met non-coders who wore dresses. Clothing is signalling; that's almost its entire purpose at this stage. If 95% of people who wear outfit A are marketers, and you wear outfit A, you're going to (initially) be treated like a marketer. Surprise!

I understood "only" to mean "most representative" as it made the most sense to me in this context (example: "she loved him as only a mother would").

But let's play by your set of rules. What would be something nobody but a coder would wear?

Bonus question. If "clothing is signalling", what does a typical coder's outfit say about their ability to come up with non copy-paste solutions?

Double bonus question. What do you think of black coders, who are even less common than female coders? Do you presume they are at a tech event to play basketball? Would you advise them to come in white face so they could provide the right "signalling"?

Also, let's get the numbers straight. Women comprise about 30% of computing workforce, a far cry from 5% that you made up to justify sexist stereotyping: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing#Statistics_i...).

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#237
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its all very good to admonish 'treat everyone well'. But when you meet a lot of people, a LOT of people, you need some filter. Cultural filters are unfair to a minority who break the mold. But the trouble is, they work very, very well most of the time. Call it by any bad name you like; but its here to stay, because it works. That a utilitarian argument I know; but in my experience the free market respects no other ki…

A story as a counter point: In my field of study there were several people with reputations for having had wacky ideas or following rabbit holes too far and publishing obtuse conclusions. When these people gave talks you could see most of the audience pre-judging their current presentation based on a filter put in place from previous or concurrent unpopular work. What I always noticed was that my advisor, who is rath…

Academics have lots of 'ivory tower' opportunities. But how about an HR rep? A recruiter? Profiling can actually help those folks get their work done, clear their backlog, get them home to supper on time.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#238
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And while you're at it: why is okay for Louis CK to make a racist joke, but not okay for you? Why it is ok for the jester to mock the king, but not for the king to mock the jester? On a related note, Louis CK is Mexican, as in a Mexican citizen born in Mexico. Spanish is his first language and he came to the US as a little kid.

He's also pretty much as white as they get. He has mostly European ancestry, little indigenous American ancestry. The subject was race, not nationality.

We were talking about "racism" and "racist jokes." If you don't think the fact that Louis CK is Mexican but everyone thinks he's American plays into why and how his comedy works, we can agree to disagree. :)

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#239

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

Lots of projection about why men are ignoring women. Maybe sometimes its nothing to do with assumptions about competence. Could be awkward unfamiliarity with what to do with a women in an admittedly male-filled industry.

I don't mean that you ought to shoulder the burden of conditioning all the males; or that its fair. Mostly the world isn't fair. But its the current state of affairs.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not using this data to treat people differently: If I'm alone at 3AM and you come out of nowhere, I wouldn't care if you were blue, green, black or white. I wouldn't trust anyone equally. My point was, that one can understand how people think and stereotype given the data, as long as the data isn't corrupted. But coming back to the data: Sure, the majority of people aren't criminals, but the few who are, belong t…

What are you saying here? People who suffer from discrimination should just learn to understand why they get stereotyped and be more tolerant about it? That's extremely self serving and entitled. If you're in a position of privilege, it's up to you to make the effort to treat everyone as fairly as you can. It's up to you to help break down the unfair boundaries that benefit you. It's your responsibility to do that. O…

I am saying that most discrimination cases are bullshit.

http://www.computerhistory.org/babbage/adalovelace/

She could hack it. In the 19th century. You mean to tell me that women back then had more rights than they do now ?

I am saying that if you are an exception, don't be surprised people assume you belong to the norm.

If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a dug, it's probably not a shark.

If someone has had to deal with 100 people from a certain category, and 2 of them were good at their stuff.. Do you think that the human mind will make up a rule based on those 2% who were good ?

That's statistics, that's what the odds are for. You calculate the odds, and make up your mind. You can be wrong, but you are more likely to be right.

If I present to you two games of lottery. One where you have 30% of winning. One where you have 0.1% of winning.. Don't tell me you'll choose the 0.1% game.

If you are in a class, and a kid comes and is presented to you as your teacher, don't tell me that your first reaction will be to embrace that and be totally confident in his abilities. Until the kid opens his mouth and proves himself.

Do you think Muggsy Bogues had it easy, with his 5 ft 3 in the NBA ?.

What do you think he had to overcome to even get a chance to talk with a coach.

People would laugh at him until he proved himself. And he expected to have to prove himself, he's a 5 ft 3 player after all, and it's not like we see them every day.

People who are good are an exception. Women in tech are an exception. Combine the two: Women who are in tech and who are good, and you got yourself a 3 sigma std or something.

Pull the records and make lists:

First list: Of all programmers.

Second list: Of all programmers, how many are good (list getting thin, right?).

Third list: Of all programmers, how many are men ?

Fourth list: Of all programmers, how many are women ? (that was is thinner than the above).

Fifth list: Of all programmers who are great, how many are women ?

Sixth list: Of all programmers who are great, how many are men ?

Now, some may say it's caused by discrimination .. But it's not. How many women are on technical anonymous forums about programming ?

Not that much. Nobody knows what anyone looks like, whether it's a dude or not.. But I'm willing to bet everything I have that most of the most members are men. And of those members, from those who are really good, almost none of them is a woman.

If there was a betting game with these odds, I'd play it.

If I'm going to get a new job, I won't expect people to trust me that I know my stuff(because the odds are that most people suck, it has nothing to do with me). I expect to be tested. I expect to earn their confidence. That's what "Earning your stripes" means. There's the word earning. Demanding it to be any other way is being a cry-baby.

When you go to an internet forum and your status is a Newbie, people don't expect you are an expert, and this in an anonymous world where no one can pull this bullshit discrimination whether based on gender or color.

When you talk with hackers, you have to earn their technical respect, whether you're a guy or a girl (if anybody was on a forum).

When you get to the army, you are expected to show your stamina and courage and prove yourself worthy. That's what initiation rituals are for. That's what "showing your scars" is for: Show us you belong here.

In any field, you frigging earn the respect, it's not handed to you. It has always been that way and I don't see dudes bitching about that.

Why don't we hear about that bullshit in teaching, medicine, etc ? Why don't we even think about women teaching ? Because there are a lot more women teaching than women coding and they didn't get there by some bullshit rule that says that 30% of chairs belong to women just because they basically are women. This* -allow someone to do something just because they belong to a minority- is the true face of discrimination.

I'd rather have a racist insult me because of where I'm from, than getting hired just because I'm from a certain country and they're too afraid to hurt my little ego (and the law protects my little, poor me, ego).

I've had interesting discussions with racists. I don't have a problem with them, at all. They're free to have their opinion of me, and they're free to hate my frigging guts. I'd have more respect for someone tell it to my face, than someone wanting to be cool by hanging out with a different nationality.

So you make a rule that forces businesses to hire a certain category is the real discrimination. The fact you're even talking gender means there's something shady in it.

So for these women (link article, and comment I replied to) being surprised people assume they're not into technical things, I think it's a little bit being thin skinned: Most women don't code. Someone might argue that most men don't, either, so I'll rephrase it (because people love getting into arguments): Of those who code, women are a minority. Any arguing on this point is wanting to please a minority by distorting the facts. I tell it straight, if anyone is hurt, sue me.

And it's getting trendy now. That girl who quit her job at GitHub. GitHub replacing their rug that says United Meritocracy of GitHub (which is weak and wimpy).

If there is anyone who loves women, it's me. I have 5 sisters whom I love and cherish. But I'm intolerant to bullshit. I'm intolerant to political correctness.

Now there are quotas to be respected in politics: 30% women. So if it's a 100 person membership, you'll have to make sure there are 30 women. So if there are some people you really like, you have to sacrifice them because you wouldn't be legal or something.

And if the number of men grows, you have to increase the number of women even though it adds no value, just to comply. This is wrong and I find it disrespecting to women.

Imagine you're a woman being used as a hole plug. We don't really need you, but we'll have you because we have to. I'd die of shame if I accepted.

Post reply on HN