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Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

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Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#461

Post by arrrg »

ps4fanboy wrote: post #401
arrrg wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I’m so very sorry that you have to do a tiny bit more work and find out specifically what someone stands for before you can coherently argue against them instead of slapping the feminist label on it and being done with it. First, I would suggest that when you attack feminism in the abstract, you attack views that are actually currently and widely held by feminists. It’s a diverse movement, but there are actual ma…

Based on this belief system you have detailed how do you feel about MRM's?

It’s an extremely narrow, extremely small ideology with little diversity. It doesn’t have much history or historical importance and the specific views I’ve encountered were firstly nearly always the same or similar and secondly not very convincing or just blatant untruths. As such to me many proponents of MRM views often felt like a tight knit group with a very specific worldview without much subtlety in their argument.

I.e. if feminism were the concept of atheism, the MRM would be the Westboro Baptist Church and not Christianity or belief in some deity as a whole. (That’s a slightly shitty metaphor since the frequent conflict MRM activists dream up between them and feminism is pretty absurd. Men getting harsher prison sentences? Men being disadvantaged during divorces? That’s often based on strict and old-fashioned gender roles, something many feminists abhor.)

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#462

Post by morenoh149 »

zimbatm wrote: post #459
dominotw wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>women are underrepresented in tech. Whenever a well defined group of people is absent from (or underrepresented in) a source of power, discrimination is taking place, period. 3,000 us army deaths in Iraq, and of those, 2,938 were men, 62 were women.

yes, men are less careful ?

no I think this is about how silly it is to try to equalize something artificially. If you try to equalize tech why not equalize military involvement. It's all ridiculous.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#463

Post by aragot »

md224 wrote: post #313
aceperry wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People: when did our brains melt and spill out of our ears?" When the topic is as controversial as sexism in tech and the workplace. Or whatever the flashpoint happens to be at the moment. Like sequoia, I've noticed that controversial topics brings out the most incredible responses from both sides, and often with very little definitive evidence. To me, this is a sign of how deeply felt this topic is, and how much it…

> Like sequoia, I've noticed that controversial topics brings out the most incredible responses from both sides, and often with very little definitive evidence. To me, this is a sign of how deeply felt this topic is, and how much it is just under the surface of our thoughts, ready to explode when an appropriate trigger occurs. I'm not sure if you were framing this as a net negative or positive, but I actually do appr…

> I suppose if heated debate leads to polarization of opinion, that's an issue, but...

It definitely leads to my polarization, along with other (seemingly unfair) events in my life. Plus, it is hard to express any other opinion than in favour of the women, which leads to unvoiced discomfort and is clearly not the situation you want in an industry.

I wish women would speak up more often for men's cause. That's also what equality means.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#464

Post by needacig »

morenoh149 wrote: post #462
zimbatm wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, men are less careful ?

no I think this is about how silly it is to try to equalize something artificially. If you try to equalize tech why not equalize military involvement. It's all ridiculous.

People who are working for equality are trying to equalize military involvement.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#465

Post by ps4fanboy »

arrrg wrote: post #461
ps4fanboy wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on this belief system you have detailed how do you feel about MRM's?

It’s an extremely narrow, extremely small ideology with little diversity. It doesn’t have much history or historical importance and the specific views I’ve encountered were firstly nearly always the same or similar and secondly not very convincing or just blatant untruths. As such to me many proponents of MRM views often felt like a tight knit group with a very specific worldview without much subtlety in their argume…

Funny you just described my experience with feminism.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#466

Post by qdog »

hnriot wrote: post #452
qdog wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you hula hoop in public you are asking to be ogled? Was she asking for it? Was she asking nice? Yeah, she was asking for it Did she ask you twice? - "Asking For It" Courtney Love and Eric Erlandson "We had just gotten off tour with Mudhoney, and I decided to stage-dive. I was wearing a dress and I didn't realize what I was engendering in the audience. It was a huge audience and they were kind of going ape-shit…

If anyone starts hula hooping at my office they will surely attract a lot of attention because it's just not something people do at work (YMMV) I didn't say she was asking for anything, I said her credibility is weakened by her reaction to this. Try it, get any two people at your workplace to hula hoop and see if people come and watch, gawk or whatever word you want to call it. And why quote Courtney Love at me, that…

Hula hoopers weren't compared to strippers, the gawkers were compared to how "customers" behave at the strip club. I know lots of women who do not enjoy being "gawked" at, including my wife and daughter.

I don't think it was expected for CL to be stripped of her clothing for stage diving, even if it maybe wasn't the best idea. However, if her gender wasn't female, she probably would have had no problems stage diving. I was insinuating that blaming the victim was your viewpoint, which it still seems to be.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#467

Post by glesica »

ssorallen wrote: post #433
glesica wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's unfortunate TechCrunch and Valley Wag posted the story without first corroborating at least some piece of it. I think we have to be careful with statements like this. Yes, they could have tried to find a Github employee who would corroborate part of it, perhaps the assertion that the wife was in the office periodically. But the problem with that is that it is perfectly reasonable to think they would have faile…

> Would anyone be on leave? Probably not. Again, that is speculation. "What ifs" are not useful here. As "news" outlets, I expect both sites to corroborate stories before posting them. If they don't, they are effectively tabloids. Posting allegations like this is the definition of tabloid journalism. There are too many people involved in this story for me to believe that zero of them were reachable for comment. TechC…

But again, you are proposing that all power be given to the larger, more powerful entity. And I totally disagree about the usefulness of "what ifs". Without "what ifs" we would all be stuck wandering around waiting for food to fall from a tree in front of us.

We only have the luxury of observing one "version" of events (unless you can hop between multiverses). Therefore, the only way we have to evaluate past events is by asking "what if" questions.

What if TechCrunch hadn't picked up the story? Basically no one would have heard about it and Github quite possibly wouldn't have felt the need to respond or investigate (maybe they still would have, another "what if", but they wouldn't have been under as much pressure).

Something went down. I'm not saying we should just lynch the accused parties and move on. But I am saying that often the only way for a small actor to get attention is for a news outlet to pick up his or her story. And if they refuse to publish without some kind of official confirmation, then very few such stories will be printed, because the larger, more powerful entity will quash them with silence.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#468

Post by rsynnott »

avoutthere wrote: post #176

Ms. Horvath's act of taking this directly to the press was obviously intended to inflict the maximum possible harm on Github and is, in itself, unprofessional and harms her credibility. The right way for her to have handled this would have been to document everything , and then resign and sue them without fanfare. Nobody wins when dirty laundry is aired.

> The right way for her to have handled this would have been to document everything, and then resign and sue them without fanfare.

Which would have put Github instantly on the defensive, and would have lead to limited and speculative publicity only. As it is, Github is not being sued, and seems to be making a proper effort to address its problems. This sounds better, really.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#469

Post by rsynnott »

greenyoda wrote: post #134
cpayne wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means just that! Github have a very fine line to walk. They don't have traditional shareholders to make happy. At the end of the day, all they have is their brand to protect. Ask Microsoft how important their brand is after releasing Windows ME. Or Blackberry just after the iPhone came out. Clearly something has happened, but they have to not only find out what happened, but to also be transparent and show that th…

"At the end of the day, all they have is their brand to protect." They also need to protect their company from a potential lawsuit.

If Hovarth was planning a lawsuit, she probably wouldn't have talked to the press; this is exactly what you don't want to do in that scenario.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#470

Post by rsynnott »

greenyoda wrote: post #300
cpayne wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the damage of a lawsuit different to the damage of their brand? It's one and the same.

Damage to their brand is temporary. If they behave themselves in a civilized manner from here on in, the media will soon forget this incident and move on to the next scandal. On the other hand, if the lawsuit is for enough money, it can bankrupt the company: a huge award to the plaintiff, lawyer fees, executives tied up in court instead of running the company, etc. Their investors may not be interested in covering bi…

> On the other hand, if the lawsuit is for enough money, it can bankrupt the company

Github has substantial cash in the bank; it's not going to be significantly harmed by an employment suit.

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