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America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

theatlantic.com

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Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#21

Post by benched »

gnaritas wrote: post #17
drawkbox wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victimless is hard to define. By victimless I think you mean non-violent really. Even if there is a victim, if there was no violence, putting the perpetrator into a jail/prison will create more violence. Also repeat offenses of non-violent crimes might be needed but most can be solved economically. For instance take someone who does some financial crime, why lock them up and have the public on the hook for 30k per ye…

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

In Internet argument fashion, a bunch of people will just jump all over you, and take your words through every useless permutation of meaning they can think of, for which they can contrive a shallowly plausible counterargument. I grow more and more convinced that very few people read to comprehend.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#22

Post by gnaritas »

benched wrote: post #21
gnaritas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

In Internet argument fashion, a bunch of people will just jump all over you, and take your words through every useless permutation of meaning they can think of, for which they can contrive a shallowly plausible counterargument. I grow more and more convinced that very few people read to comprehend.

> I grow more and more convinced that very few people read to comprehend.

As do I. I find myself continually defending things I didn't say because people are more concerned with arguing with what they think I meant rather than reading what I actually said.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#23

Post by drawkbox »

pstuart wrote: post #20
drawkbox wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victimless is hard to define. By victimless I think you mean non-violent really. Even if there is a victim, if there was no violence, putting the perpetrator into a jail/prison will create more violence. Also repeat offenses of non-violent crimes might be needed but most can be solved economically. For instance take someone who does some financial crime, why lock them up and have the public on the hook for 30k per ye…

Fraud is non-violent but people are hurt by it.

So would you rather have the fraudster go to jail costing the tax payers 30k per year, or have them out and working to make back that money?

If you like the former then fraudsters allow the entire taxpayer base to absorb their fraud with a fee on top to keep them locked up (more losses), that will happen either way but it would be nice if they were working for that back rather than locked up.

If you commit fraud you are also marked for some time after like probation but no jail time unless you repeat offend or cause violence. Making fraudsters work is probably more of a fear than jail for some.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#24

Post by drawkbox »

gnaritas wrote: post #17
drawkbox wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victimless is hard to define. By victimless I think you mean non-violent really. Even if there is a victim, if there was no violence, putting the perpetrator into a jail/prison will create more violence. Also repeat offenses of non-violent crimes might be needed but most can be solved economically. For instance take someone who does some financial crime, why lock them up and have the public on the hook for 30k per ye…

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

Ok but defining victimless definitions would be a nightmare and ripe for abuse, violence is easy to define.

Drugs are only violent if they are illegal, rape is violence, gambling is sometimes legal-- noone should ever be locked up for gambling -- it is not violent. Morals should not be used, civil rights and not affecting others rights should be the metric. You start involving morals, a bunch of religions have different ideas of that. Violence and invading others personal rights is easy to define. The reason why we have a black market problem is defining things on 'morals'.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#25

Post by baddox »

test1235 wrote: post #7
samstave wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every cop should be required to were a gopro on their chest. Anyone who has any encounter with a cop should have protected rights to access and review that video as material evidence in their case.

... then maybe people will realise how unfairly vilified the police are, and what a tough job it actually is.

It would show good cops to be good cops, and the few murderers to be murderers. Sounds good to me.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#26

Post by jostmey »

The line between legitimate enterprise and an illegal business is perhaps thinner than that between genius and insanity.

Of course the US has a black-market problem. I have meet many young businessmen who just ignore the law because the legal landscape is too complex. And I cannot blame them for their actions.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#27

Post by baddox »

delucain wrote: post #12
humanrebar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Can everyone come to an agreement about what counts as a victim? 2. Maybe no victimless crime should result in jail time, but there are a lot of penalties for "victimless" crimes (tax evasion, illegal production of controlled substances) that justly result in fines. EDIT: OK. I typed too quickly with the child support bit. In retrospect, that was a bad example. I also added scare quotes to emphasize that justice c…

Tax evasion hurts society as a whole by reducing available resources for the programs that aid our country, and failure to provide child support harm the children and mothers that the child support was intended for in much the same way. Neither of these are victimless crimes. Victimless crimes are typically things that only harm the person/people involved in the crime, i.e. prostitution, recreational drug use, or gam…

> Tax evasion hurts society as a whole by reducing available resources for the programs that aid our country

That argument only works if taxation provides a net benefit to society.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#28

Post by gnaritas »

drawkbox wrote: post #24
gnaritas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

Ok but defining victimless definitions would be a nightmare and ripe for abuse, violence is easy to define. Drugs are only violent if they are illegal, rape is violence, gambling is sometimes legal-- noone should ever be locked up for gambling -- it is not violent. Morals should not be used, civil rights and not affecting others rights should be the metric. You start involving morals, a bunch of religions have differ…

I could make the same argument about violence by talking about mental abuse. And as I said, morals are already involved, these crimes exist because of morals, not because they hurt people.

The fact is, victimless is as easy to define as violence is or easy enough to have a pretty clear line.

Consuming drugs hurts no one but the consumer. Having 5 wives hurts no one as long as they all consented. Gambling your own money should be your choice.

While there may be the occasional things on the margin, most are quite clearly victimless.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#30

Post by drawkbox »

benched wrote: post #21
gnaritas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

In Internet argument fashion, a bunch of people will just jump all over you, and take your words through every useless permutation of meaning they can think of, for which they can contrive a shallowly plausible counterargument. I grow more and more convinced that very few people read to comprehend.

I understood what he said. But nice fallacious empty message here. Tell me how you define victimless? How do you define violent? Which one is easier to define in court? Or would you rather just invade discussions with fallacies and attacking the messenger? Also didn't you just jump all over my message?
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