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America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

theatlantic.com

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Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#11

Post by wavefunction »

humanrebar wrote: post #5
gnaritas wrote: post #3

America has a prison industrial complex and corrupt justice system problem. There wouldn't be black markets for drugs if we stopped jailing people for victimless crimes to begin with. No victimless crime should result in criminal charges. Going to jail should never be a possibility when there's no victim.

1. Can everyone come to an agreement about what counts as a victim? 2. Maybe no victimless crime should result in jail time, but there are a lot of penalties for "victimless" crimes (tax evasion, illegal production of controlled substances) that justly result in fines. EDIT: OK. I typed too quickly with the child support bit. In retrospect, that was a bad example. I also added scare quotes to emphasize that justice c…

Tax evasion and failure to provide child support are perfect examples of crimes with real victims. The perpetrator is victimizing society, and their own child in these cases.

Do you have some better examples you would like to use?

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#12

Post by delucain »

humanrebar wrote: post #5
gnaritas wrote: post #3

America has a prison industrial complex and corrupt justice system problem. There wouldn't be black markets for drugs if we stopped jailing people for victimless crimes to begin with. No victimless crime should result in criminal charges. Going to jail should never be a possibility when there's no victim.

1. Can everyone come to an agreement about what counts as a victim? 2. Maybe no victimless crime should result in jail time, but there are a lot of penalties for "victimless" crimes (tax evasion, illegal production of controlled substances) that justly result in fines. EDIT: OK. I typed too quickly with the child support bit. In retrospect, that was a bad example. I also added scare quotes to emphasize that justice c…

Tax evasion hurts society as a whole by reducing available resources for the programs that aid our country, and failure to provide child support harm the children and mothers that the child support was intended for in much the same way. Neither of these are victimless crimes. Victimless crimes are typically things that only harm the person/people involved in the crime, i.e. prostitution, recreational drug use, or gambling.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#13

Post by drawkbox »

gnaritas wrote: post #3

America has a prison industrial complex and corrupt justice system problem. There wouldn't be black markets for drugs if we stopped jailing people for victimless crimes to begin with. No victimless crime should result in criminal charges. Going to jail should never be a possibility when there's no victim.

Victimless is hard to define. By victimless I think you mean non-violent really. Even if there is a victim, if there was no violence, putting the perpetrator into a jail/prison will create more violence.

Also repeat offenses of non-violent crimes might be needed but most can be solved economically. For instance take someone who does some financial crime, why lock them up and have the public on the hook for 30k per year or more when they could be making money back they stole and mark them for some period of time similar to jail time. Why cost the public 30k+ per inmate at all if it isn't a violent crime? What a waste.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#14

Post by adamdavis »

test1235 wrote: post #7
samstave wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every cop should be required to were a gopro on their chest. Anyone who has any encounter with a cop should have protected rights to access and review that video as material evidence in their case.

... then maybe people will realise how unfairly vilified the police are, and what a tough job it actually is.

Sure, and people who are victims of dishonest police can have evidence to support their claims. Everyone wins.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#15

Post by girvo »

test1235 wrote: post #7
samstave wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every cop should be required to were a gopro on their chest. Anyone who has any encounter with a cop should have protected rights to access and review that video as material evidence in their case.

... then maybe people will realise how unfairly vilified the police are, and what a tough job it actually is.

Is it a tough job? You bet. Are they unfairly vilified? Not a chance: police should be held to a higher moral standard than the general public, as they're the ones enforcing it.

The best part of them wearing a GoPro is that everyone wins: civilians get to feel much safer, and police get to show that they're not as bad as they're made out to be.

The issue arises when the cops have that introduced, and accusations of excess force drop dramatically... that sort of shows that yes, they are as bad as they're made out to be...

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#16

Post by bjdixon »

test1235 wrote: post #7
samstave wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every cop should be required to were a gopro on their chest. Anyone who has any encounter with a cop should have protected rights to access and review that video as material evidence in their case.

... then maybe people will realise how unfairly vilified the police are, and what a tough job it actually is.

This exactly. Really tough and often thankless job. As shown in Rialto everybody wins when the police wear cameras. Complaints down 88%, use of force down 60% http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/california-poli...

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#17

Post by gnaritas »

drawkbox wrote: post #13
gnaritas wrote: post #3

America has a prison industrial complex and corrupt justice system problem. There wouldn't be black markets for drugs if we stopped jailing people for victimless crimes to begin with. No victimless crime should result in criminal charges. Going to jail should never be a possibility when there's no victim.

Victimless is hard to define. By victimless I think you mean non-violent really. Even if there is a victim, if there was no violence, putting the perpetrator into a jail/prison will create more violence. Also repeat offenses of non-violent crimes might be needed but most can be solved economically. For instance take someone who does some financial crime, why lock them up and have the public on the hook for 30k per ye…

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults.

Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#19

Post by mahyarm »

test1235 wrote: post #7
samstave wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every cop should be required to were a gopro on their chest. Anyone who has any encounter with a cop should have protected rights to access and review that video as material evidence in their case.

... then maybe people will realise how unfairly vilified the police are, and what a tough job it actually is.

The police are a case of when it goes wrong, it goes REALLY wrong. Instagram down? Not a big deal. Space shuttle software bug? Possible death, explosions and millions of dollars of destruction. The two software systems are developed very differently as a result.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#20

Post by pstuart »

drawkbox wrote: post #13
gnaritas wrote: post #3

America has a prison industrial complex and corrupt justice system problem. There wouldn't be black markets for drugs if we stopped jailing people for victimless crimes to begin with. No victimless crime should result in criminal charges. Going to jail should never be a possibility when there's no victim.

Victimless is hard to define. By victimless I think you mean non-violent really. Even if there is a victim, if there was no violence, putting the perpetrator into a jail/prison will create more violence. Also repeat offenses of non-violent crimes might be needed but most can be solved economically. For instance take someone who does some financial crime, why lock them up and have the public on the hook for 30k per ye…

Fraud is non-violent but people are hurt by it.
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