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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#971

Post by maxcan »

locusm wrote: post #913
maxcan wrote: post #882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it could have been well intentioned. bringing in an pseudo-outsider may not be the smartest move but its also not necessarily evil at all. the founder may have felt that his wife could relate in some way. until more evidence is given, we should withhold judgement.

Things like this should be formalised though. Its very unusual for a spouse to prance around any organisation handing out directives/advice. Maybe its a sign that the founder in question doesn't have the people skills to handle her possibly dominant personality.

> should be

Yes, but its the difference between malice and an innocent error in judgement.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#972

Post by mst »

mst wrote: post #952
erikpukinskis wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it matters whether it was reported. Unless the founder gives his wife an explicit role and tells employees where he ends and she beings, it's fair to assume that low-level employees are going to assume he is fully aware of her interactions, and she is acting as his right hand. I realize that's a lot of assumptions, but that's why the founder needs to get out in front of these things and make them explic…

I was addressing everything except the founder's wife problem; you're in the wrong thread.

The above was early morning crankiness but I really wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the other failures.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#973

Post by countrybama24 »

nodelessness wrote: post #935
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, the guy who declared his love for her despite knowing that she had a boyfriend, and then started sabotaging all her code when she shot him down, is very much sexist bullshit.

That's not sexist. Sexism is when you act out the belief that the person of other gender is inferior to yours. Singling her out for rejecting his advances is not sexist.

The idea that she's obligated to respond favorably to his advances or be punished is most definitely sexist.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#974

Post by nodelessness »

countrybama24 wrote: post #973
nodelessness wrote: post #935

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not sexist. Sexism is when you act out the belief that the person of other gender is inferior to yours. Singling her out for rejecting his advances is not sexist.

The idea that she's obligated to respond favorably to his advances or be punished is most definitely sexist.

But that is not what happened here.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#975

Post by abalone »

mst wrote: post #954
abalone wrote: post #816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, in the lean management organization you don't really have someone to take you aside and tell you to stop being a dick. This is especially problematic when trying to overcome culturally calcified gender discrimination. What you're describing as being a "blunt bastard" could very well come off as male-privileged locker room talk. In the sports world there have been numerous attempts to contort locker room…

> These arguments miss the forest for the trees: there does exist a culture of male privilege that is overwhelmingly less welcoming to women. Where there are problems that affect both genders, they should be tackled as that - treating a 'loud people' versus 'quiet people' problem as a male privilege problem is unbelievably problematic since it plays into the 'women just can't cope with men being honest' bullshit, and…

You're bending over backwards to avoid admitting sexism exists in tech. That's like saying both men and women engage in locker room talk, so there's no sexism in professional sports and in fact it's sexist to imply that women can't handle locker room talk. We've heard that one before.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#976

Post by mst »

abalone wrote: post #975
mst wrote: post #954

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These arguments miss the forest for the trees: there does exist a culture of male privilege that is overwhelmingly less welcoming to women. Where there are problems that affect both genders, they should be tackled as that - treating a 'loud people' versus 'quiet people' problem as a male privilege problem is unbelievably problematic since it plays into the 'women just can't cope with men being honest' bullshit, and…

You're bending over backwards to avoid admitting sexism exists in tech. That's like saying both men and women engage in locker room talk, so there's no sexism in professional sports and in fact it's sexist to imply that women can't handle locker room talk. We've heard that one before.

> You're bending over backwards to avoid admitting sexism exists in tech.

I'm saying that sometimes the answer is to remember that people are different full stop rather than jump straight to gender as the key difference, which may give you a mistaken analysis of the problem. If you have a situation that disadvantages quiet nice people and most of your quiet nice people are women, this results in negative outcomes for women but the best path to a solution is to figure out how to fix it for -all- quiet nice people.

I've made no claim either way in this thread so far as to whether sexism exists in tech - what I've done is to point out certain things that were cultural/management fuckups in general rather than specifically sexist, and to suggest that calling them what they are will make them easier to fix. It seems reasonably likely to be true that the origin of the bias against 'quiet nice people' comes out of gender roles, but that which is sanely classifiable as structural sexism at an institutional and cultural level by the time it manifests at the ground level is hurting everybody holding those personality traits and is therefore best dealt with as it is.

Or: Patriarchy theory is a useful analysis tool but I'm damned if I'm going to try and teach it to everybody if I can get results at least as effective much more quickly by making them realise they're being an asshole to nice people.

Honestly, I would rate the probability as pretty high that the culture also has a sexism problem, and that there will be plenty of issues that are best addressed in those terms, but that's orthogonal to the point I was trying to make.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#977

Post by LordHumungous »

shadowmint wrote: post #371
sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

I've always been broadly under the impression that the HR department was a waste of air, but I suppose conflict resolution is perhaps something they'd be useful for. ...maybe.

HR is worthless until the day they become invaluable.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#978

Post by ahomescu1 »

Nursie wrote: post #939
ahomescu1 wrote: post #938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does "life and humanity" include a bad breakup, tons of drama, and pulling the entire office/company into that drama? (not saying it's always the case, or even a lot, but it's very bad in the few cases when it does happen) If people could truly separate their personal lives from their professional ones, this wouldn't ever be an issue.

Of course it does. That's humanity. I understand entirely why a business would want to avoid this stuff, but I also understand why a business might want to not have to pay employees, or might want to work them 24 hours a day if it could. None of these things is healthy.

It's arguable. While it's completely unreasonable for a business to overwork its employees or not pay them, it seems reasonable to me to expect them to not bring their personal issues to the workplace. Also, I imagine their coworkers feel the same; if you're trying to get work done, and your coworkers are fighting because of their relationship, wouldn't you want them to stop/go away?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#979

Post by [deleted] »

chanux wrote: post #226
yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

I, as a male, try to avoid staring at another female because I fear someone like Horvath accuses me of sexism. This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. PS: To avoid looking one-sided and narrow (which I believe I'm not) I really feel bad about this whole situation and the lady who had to go through that. Personally liked a github as a company.

[deleted]

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#980

Post by Mz »

yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

7. Horvath felt male co-workers gawking/staring/looking at female co-workers hula-hooping while sitting in a couch looked like someone visiting a strip club.

My issue with this is she had no problem with the females doing the hula hooping but had a big problem with the guys who were watching. This is one of the problems with these ongoing debates: Women very often feel it is somehow solely on men to not look (or whatever) while claiming women can do any damn thing they want. Anyone, male or female, who tries to suggest that women bear some responsibility for not shakin it at work get called a victim blamer, rape apologist, etc.

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