Update on Julie Horvath's Departure • Hacker News Board

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#441

Post by pervycreeper » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 4:40 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #435

pervycreeper wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Whenever a well defined group of people is absent from (or underrepresented in) a source of power, discrimination is taking place, period. This is a good illustration of the point in the grandparent comment. This is simply not true, and I can't even think of any fallacy/ belief/ blindspot that could be adopted by a somewhat rational listener to make it sound convincing. (just to address the recalcitrant credulous am…

People with Down Syndrome suffer from a debilitating disability that directly affects their ability to perform the essential functions required from math professors. Unless you suggest that being a woman or a black man is a similar disability, I think the comparison is inappropriate. The reason I put "period" is because many people aren't aware of the current body of research in gender studies and sociology, and mode…

>I think the comparison is inappropriate

Another case in point, it was a counterexample, not a comparison.

In your case, I now believe you are primarily just a sloppy/ bad thinker (who is also heavily invested in a certain position), but my original point about emotion clouding judgement still stands.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#442

Post by tw268 » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 4:43 PM UTC

pervycreeper wrote: post #426

pron wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is sad that some people dispute the existence of sexism in tech, but that does not make it controversial in the sense that it is contentious, because it isn't. The facts are simple: 1) technology is a big source of power in our society, and 2) women are underrepresented in tech. Whenever a well defined group of people is absent from (or underrepresented in) a source of power, discrimination is taking place, period…

>Whenever a well defined group of people is absent from (or underrepresented in) a source of power, discrimination is taking place, period. This is a good illustration of the point in the grandparent comment. This is simply not true, and I can't even think of any fallacy/ belief/ blindspot that could be adopted by a somewhat rational listener to make it sound convincing. (just to address the recalcitrant credulous am…

There's a lot of research on emotional/cognitive sex differences[1] - from risk aversion to math ability. Leftists/feminists are the science-denying young earth creationists of the social realm.

The only way to eliminate gender based inequality is to start injecting female fetuses with male hormones pre-birth. Personally, I never understood why feminists so desperately want girls to be boys.

[1] ex. http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.com/2013/09/are-girls-too-no...

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#443

Post by TheCondor » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 4:52 PM UTC

LukeB_UK wrote: post #403

TheCondor wrote: post #402

I'm going to sound *ist... You know how this is solved? Seriously? If you are abused, violated, made to feel uncomfortable, intimidated, etc... Write it down, gather evidence, gather some witnesses and then hire a lawyer and start suing. Go after the vc if it's a start up and the founders are involved... That's how we got seat belts... I just don't see much good coming from putting this in the open like this. Sue the…

And I don't see much good from simply suing a company without trying to work with them in the first place. If it was your company, surely you'd want them to try and solve it internally first?

I'll clarify, sue them as opposed to taking it to twitter and a pseudo-journalistic startup news site. I would think that it would be the last resort and some reasonable amount of effort be made before taking that option.

Or conversely, name names, go all in. Put the bad actors on notice and let what happens happen. It's not libel if it's true. Just all the rumors, speculation, etc. doesn't seem good for any thing. Not everyone involved with GitHub is an a-hole, at least I hope not..

All things being equal, I have no idea what the timelines are, I have no idea what reasonable things were done or not, I have no idea who is on leave or not. Yet in this thread strangers are questioning the marriage decisions of other people... It's an ugly story and it brings out ugly in the community. Sue everyone involved and if you win, future companies will certainly be different. My off the cuff immediate take away? Be really careful with the ultra social folks, big blog or big twitter following and they might just blow up in your face in a very public way.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#444

Post by pron » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:06 PM UTC

pervycreeper wrote: post #441

pron wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with Down Syndrome suffer from a debilitating disability that directly affects their ability to perform the essential functions required from math professors. Unless you suggest that being a woman or a black man is a similar disability, I think the comparison is inappropriate. The reason I put "period" is because many people aren't aware of the current body of research in gender studies and sociology, and mode…

>I think the comparison is inappropriate Another case in point, it was a counterexample, not a comparison. In your case, I now believe you are primarily just a sloppy/ bad thinker (who is also heavily invested in a certain position), but my original point about emotion clouding judgement still stands.

What is it with the ad-hominem attacks today? I am probably a sloppy thinker and possibly a very bad one, but luckily I've received some very good education, and in this particular case I didn't even need to think at all. I simply informed readers that by modern definitions of sexism, absence of women from places of influence equals sexism (at least somewhere in society if not at a particular workplace). I am certainly not invested in this... oh, wait, actually, you're right, I am – I'm a feminist (or, at least, I'd like to be) and I want to live and work in a more egalitarian society. If you take any issue with this thinking, I'm kindly pointing you to the last 50 years of research in history, sociology and anthropology and the relevant researchers. Take it up with them (but don't tell them they're emotional as they'll take offense because, you know, they're emotional).

And, again, I'm sorry for my sloppy thinking, but I believe that "consider whether there is discrimination against Down Syndrome sufferers amongst tenured faculty on math departments" is not a counterexample because pertinent disability most certainly doesn't fall under any definition of sexism/racism and other unfair discrimination (same goes for quadriplegics in the NBA). Pitting disability against sexism as a counterexample appeared to me to be a brow-raising comparison. This fallacy is called reductio ad absurdum or a straw man.

If you'd like, I can come up with a better counterpoint (or so it would seem to my feeble mind, which I actually had to exercise for this): white players in the NBA. However, that, too, would not fall under the modern definition for racism, as racism (like sexism) is "prejudice + power", and I don't think anyone suggests white men lack power or influence in American sports.

And if I was sloppy by not qualifying the term "a well defined group of people" to exclude disability, forgive me, I thought it was patently clear from the context, namely a discussion on women. And please don't try to counter with discrimination against those who don't know programming or village idiots, because the definition excludes that kind of "discrimination", too, and I hope that's clear enough without me quoting vast amounts of research verbatim.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#445

Post by mtrimpe » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:22 PM UTC

mst wrote: post #411

mtrimpe wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that the flamewar detector (although I think it actually used to be flagging mostly) has been adjusted somewhat, or at least given a manual override for worthy discussions. I can reassure you that this thread would have quickly been flagged off just a few months ago. I'm guessing it's due to the fair amount of criticism PG received (from myself included) over how the flamewar-filter censored sensitive, yet i…

I would say that it's more likely that the team consistently monitors multiple factors and makes adjustments based on overall input. Or, the complaints including yours probably did have -some- influence, but I think you're overestimating how much because to you, your comments were a heartfelt effort to make a point, whereas to pg they were 'add one to number of complaints of type X'. It's still important, given said…

I'm curious as to what compelled you to state that my estimate of the impact complaints had on the situation, even though entirely unquantified, was probably still too high?

Regardless; I can confirm that many people complained about it and roughly a week or two after the whole 'PG is a sexist' kerfluffle sexism related threads stopped being flagged off the frontpage... It seemed like relevant information for the OP.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#446

Post by greenyoda » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:23 PM UTC

cpayne wrote: post #320

greenyoda wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damage to their brand is temporary. If they behave themselves in a civilized manner from here on in, the media will soon forget this incident and move on to the next scandal. On the other hand, if the lawsuit is for enough money, it can bankrupt the company: a huge award to the plaintiff, lawyer fees, executives tied up in court instead of running the company, etc. Their investors may not be interested in covering bi…

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. Depending on who you read, Github is a $750m company. What's the payout going to be - $2m? $5m? This isn't going to bankrupt them. San Diego Sea World and the killer whale or Blackberry & Palm mobile devices are examples of irreparable brand damage. What's the going price for a Microsoft Zune player?

Github has a value of $750m on paper. That doesn't mean that the company has any significant revenue stream out of which it can pay a $5M settlement. And $5M would be 5% of their recent $100M Series A funding, so it would a large chunk of their working capital. In any case, if that $5M goes to the plaintiff and lawyers, it won't be going to pay the yearly cost of 25 developers.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#447

Post by wcummings » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:31 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #399

wcummings wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A coworker showing up uninvited to her house and making an awkward and uninvited advance, or systematically reverting commits as vengeance. I made a vague statement, but I think "reverting a commit" is definitely minimizing what she claims happened

Seriously? You would fire employee for making an awkward and advance? I can see firing person for reverting commits as vengeance. I can see firing person for harassing someone or if he was threatening. I can not see it reasonable to fire employee for asking another one on date once, even if it was awkward and unexpected. Maybe I'm weird, but I do not see it employers business to police relationships of their adult em…

She clearly felt he was threatened, whatever that is worth.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#448

Post by wtbob » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:40 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #366

aceperry wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People: when did our brains melt and spill out of our ears?" When the topic is as controversial as sexism in tech and the workplace. Or whatever the flashpoint happens to be at the moment. Like sequoia, I've noticed that controversial topics brings out the most incredible responses from both sides, and often with very little definitive evidence. To me, this is a sign of how deeply felt this topic is, and how much it…

It is sad that some people dispute the existence of sexism in tech, but that does not make it controversial in the sense that it is contentious, because it isn't. The facts are simple: 1) technology is a big source of power in our society, and 2) women are underrepresented in tech. Whenever a well defined group of people is absent from (or underrepresented in) a source of power, discrimination is taking place, period…

> Whenever a well defined group of people is absent from (or underrepresented in) a source of power, discrimination is taking place, period.

You are correct, but only if the term 'discrimation' includes 'discrimination based on skill levels.' If not, then you are assuming that power-relevant skill is distributed evenly, which is baldly false in many real-wrld situations.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#449

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 6:34 PM UTC

qdog wrote: post #214

hnriot wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty odd for women to be hula hooping, I've never seen that, but Julia's reaction to is is bananas. How does that make her feel threatened? Can't she just ignore it, of course men are going to look, did the women think nobody would notice? To me this belittles any legitimate claim she might have, if she's this irrational about this event, then it clouds my view of other things she says. She also sounds confuse…

So, if you hula hoop in public you are asking to be ogled? Was she asking for it? Was she asking nice? Yeah, she was asking for it Did she ask you twice? - "Asking For It" Courtney Love and Eric Erlandson "We had just gotten off tour with Mudhoney, and I decided to stage-dive. I was wearing a dress and I didn't realize what I was engendering in the audience. It was a huge audience and they were kind of going ape-shit…

[deleted]

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#450

Post by maxcan » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 6:39 PM UTC

infinity0 wrote: post #386

piokoch wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if Horvath is right or not, but this is nice case study how PR works. I would say this statement is a very clever move from GitHub side. I guess they have skilled PR people working on the issue. At first look, the cited article seems to admit to everything. As a result, it will be sort of last news on the topic - if they admitted Horvath is right and they even put on leave a founder and the programmer an…

It's possible that things will be brushed under the carpet as you say. But I'm not convinced that this is a "clever PR move" as you suggest. What else can GitHub do at this point? Fire the people involved without even investigating ?

Its an established precedent that anyone accused of any sexual impropriety - from harassment to assault and worse, is prima facie guilty, deserves no presumption of innocence, and should be punished immediately.