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MIT faulted over its support for students

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Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#21

Post by wolfgke »

rayiner wrote: post #16
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful what you wish for. History has shown that countries which are free to think will eventually outthink those that aren't. And what you're arguing for is restriction of thought.

You're free to think whatever you want. This is about interfering with other peoples' property. Personally, I think people over-romanticize hacker culture in saying it's a key part of technological progress. Scientific advancement is a process that overwhelmingly happens purposefully, not through tinkering. It's DARPA funding defense contractors to invent TCP/IP, not some kids "learning" by breaking into other people…

> Personally, I think people over-romanticize hacker culture in saying it's a key part of technological progress. Scientific advancement is a process that overwhelmingly happens purposefully, not through tinkering. It's DARPA funding defense contractors to invent TCP/IP, not some kids "learning" by breaking into other peoples' property.

It's hacker culture that created GNU/Linux (and lots of other free software), not DARPA's funding.

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#22

Post by angersock »

rayiner wrote: post #16
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful what you wish for. History has shown that countries which are free to think will eventually outthink those that aren't. And what you're arguing for is restriction of thought.

You're free to think whatever you want. This is about interfering with other peoples' property. Personally, I think people over-romanticize hacker culture in saying it's a key part of technological progress. Scientific advancement is a process that overwhelmingly happens purposefully, not through tinkering. It's DARPA funding defense contractors to invent TCP/IP, not some kids "learning" by breaking into other people…

"Scientific advancement is a process that overwhelmingly happens purposefully, not through tinkering."

Tinkering is exactly what got us Linux, what got us Unix, and what got us radio communication and x-rays.

So, no, I do believe you are mistaken.

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#23

Post by angersock »

tsotha wrote: post #20

Grow up, kids. The law applies to you too.

The laws are obviously not worth the paper they're printed on--they are neither wholly reformative nor punitive in nature, and their administration could best be described as whimsical if not outright malicious.

So, no, why should we assume our kids should follow that bollocks?

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#24

Post by tzs »

suprgeek wrote: post #5

This has been long time coming. These days if a student or young person does what Steve Jobs (phone device) or Bill Gates (exploiting bugs for more Computer time) did and got away with, they face lawsuits and decades in Jail. It is up to Universities like MIT to aggressively intervene in these cases and ensure that young people are free to (some extent) break systems and exploit system weaknesses in the interest of l…

> MIT did the opposite in the Aaron Shwartz case, their conduct was in large part responsible for Ortiz & Heyman getting Aaron over a barrel of 30 years in the pokey

Swartz was, if he rejected the plea bargain that would have given him a few months at most and went to trial and lost on all charges, looking at around 7 years at the extreme outside, tops, not 30. If you would like the detail on why this is so, take a look at any of the dozens of prior discussion of the Swartz case here, since this has been explained in great detail in nearly every one of them.

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#25

Post by akerl_ »

angersock wrote: post #23
tsotha wrote: post #20

Grow up, kids. The law applies to you too.

The laws are obviously not worth the paper they're printed on--they are neither wholly reformative nor punitive in nature, and their administration could best be described as whimsical if not outright malicious. So, no, why should we assume our kids should follow that bollocks?

Having issues with the government / laws does not mean that people get to just toss them out the window.

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#26

Post by marvin »

tzs wrote: post #24
suprgeek wrote: post #5

This has been long time coming. These days if a student or young person does what Steve Jobs (phone device) or Bill Gates (exploiting bugs for more Computer time) did and got away with, they face lawsuits and decades in Jail. It is up to Universities like MIT to aggressively intervene in these cases and ensure that young people are free to (some extent) break systems and exploit system weaknesses in the interest of l…

> MIT did the opposite in the Aaron Shwartz case, their conduct was in large part responsible for Ortiz & Heyman getting Aaron over a barrel of 30 years in the pokey Swartz was, if he rejected the plea bargain that would have given him a few months at most and went to trial and lost on all charges, looking at around 7 years at the extreme outside, tops, not 30. If you would like the detail on why this is so, take a l…

This does nothing to address suprgeek's point: Excessive prosecution has a chilling effect on technological exploration and entrepeneurship.

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#27

Post by tsotha »

suprgeek wrote: post #5

This has been long time coming. These days if a student or young person does what Steve Jobs (phone device) or Bill Gates (exploiting bugs for more Computer time) did and got away with, they face lawsuits and decades in Jail. It is up to Universities like MIT to aggressively intervene in these cases and ensure that young people are free to (some extent) break systems and exploit system weaknesses in the interest of l…

>This has been long time coming. These days if a student or young person does what Steve Jobs (phone device) or Bill Gates (exploiting bugs for more Computer time) did and got away with, they face lawsuits and decades in Jail.

Jobs didn't avoid jail because times were more permissive. He stayed out of jail because he didn't get caught. People went to jail for phone phreaking.

>It is up to Universities like MIT to aggressively intervene in these cases and ensure that young people are free to (some extent) break systems and exploit system weaknesses in the interest of learning.

I don't understand how anyone could come to this conclusion. Students breaking the law should be expelled, not coddled.

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#28

Post by tsotha »

angersock wrote: post #23
tsotha wrote: post #20

Grow up, kids. The law applies to you too.

The laws are obviously not worth the paper they're printed on--they are neither wholly reformative nor punitive in nature, and their administration could best be described as whimsical if not outright malicious. So, no, why should we assume our kids should follow that bollocks?

Because if they don't they'll go to jail.

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#29

Post by PhasmaFelis »

tzs wrote: post #24
suprgeek wrote: post #5

This has been long time coming. These days if a student or young person does what Steve Jobs (phone device) or Bill Gates (exploiting bugs for more Computer time) did and got away with, they face lawsuits and decades in Jail. It is up to Universities like MIT to aggressively intervene in these cases and ensure that young people are free to (some extent) break systems and exploit system weaknesses in the interest of l…

> MIT did the opposite in the Aaron Shwartz case, their conduct was in large part responsible for Ortiz & Heyman getting Aaron over a barrel of 30 years in the pokey Swartz was, if he rejected the plea bargain that would have given him a few months at most and went to trial and lost on all charges, looking at around 7 years at the extreme outside, tops, not 30. If you would like the detail on why this is so, take a l…

Uh huh, but the prosecutor threatened him with 30 to try and scare him into bargaining, and Swartz apparently believed him, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Re: MIT faulted over its support for students

#30

Post by asdfologist »

tsotha wrote: post #27
suprgeek wrote: post #5

This has been long time coming. These days if a student or young person does what Steve Jobs (phone device) or Bill Gates (exploiting bugs for more Computer time) did and got away with, they face lawsuits and decades in Jail. It is up to Universities like MIT to aggressively intervene in these cases and ensure that young people are free to (some extent) break systems and exploit system weaknesses in the interest of l…

>This has been long time coming. These days if a student or young person does what Steve Jobs (phone device) or Bill Gates (exploiting bugs for more Computer time) did and got away with, they face lawsuits and decades in Jail. Jobs didn't avoid jail because times were more permissive. He stayed out of jail because he didn't get caught. People went to jail for phone phreaking. >It is up to Universities like MIT to agg…

So by your reasoning, students caught smoking marijuana should be expelled? What about people like Edward Snowden? Should he have gotten the Aaron Swartz treatment too if he were at MIT? Right, because all laws are just.
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