Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit • Hacker News Board

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#661

Post by mwfunk » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:11 PM UTC

wahsd wrote: post #652

keithpeter wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Who can access private company data, why, and for what reason?" This seems to me to be the major takeaway for organisations outside github from this sorry affair. I'm sort of surprised you are the only person to raise this so far. In the UK, the employee who resigned could have a successful day in an employment tribunal. And one aspect of the hearing would be privacy and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act pr…

But you live in the UK, which is still part of Europe, where people are still people that have rights. Your only right in the USA is the right to leave.

The fact that you were able to post this means that your statement is false. Using hyperbole to make a point only serves to invalidate your point, unless your audience is composed of complete idiots (not hyperbole, that's actually what I mean). I would hope that the HN readership isn't a bunch of idiots, although you obviously think they are.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#662

Post by jroseattle » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:11 PM UTC

The impression this story leaves me with:

- Github leadership is run by adolescents who behave as one might in high school situations.

- Good luck to whomever says they worked in Github HR at this point in time. Your professional embarrassment is about to go off the charts.

- Andreessen Horowitz gave these guys US $100MM. Yes, it reflects upon them too.

But...I'd like to hear the other side of the story. As a manager for years, I've seen situations like this before (although not this sensational.) While the sexism word has been thrown out here, it's never anything as simple as gender. There are team dynamics at work, and those dynamics matter in context.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#663

Post by philwelch » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:12 PM UTC

heynk wrote: post #610

discardorama wrote: post #595

I'm curious about the "hula hoop" issue that Julie is referring to. As a male nerd, I will admit that my social skills are a bit lacking. However: I don't see the problem with staring at women who are putting on a show which is clearly unrelated to their work. If 2 women started making out in the break room, I'm ashamed to say that I might just linger longer than usual.

It helps to focus on empathy in these situations. You may view their activities or two lesbians as making a 'show', but perhaps to them it is a personal matter which they would prefer to enjoy to themselves. Sometimes hula hooping is just embarrassing and it's usually awkward to have a bunch of members of the opposite sex staring at you while you do anything. I don't blame you at all for having those natural reaction…

If you don't want people to watch you snogging, you shouldn't be snogging in public.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#664

Post by joshlegs » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:13 PM UTC

I'm so fucking tired of this so-called "more opportunities to succeed" thing i keep hearing about. such a load of crap. you make your own opportunities. Period. That's been true of my life and everyone i know.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#665

Post by toomuchtodo » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:13 PM UTC

skyebook wrote: post #528

cwilson wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as easy as the wife grabbing the husbands laptop and scanning the Hipchat logs.

GitHub uses campfire, but HipChat does not give any way for a account owners/admins to read personal 1-1 chat logs.

Hipchat user/admin; agreed. I don't have access to 1 on 1 chat logs and I prefer it that way.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#666

Post by dyno12345 » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:18 PM UTC

jd0 wrote: post #291

Cederfjard wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The hula hooping moment was important because it visibly demonstrated her male coworkers lack of respect for women as people. They were unabashedly staring at their female coworkers as "eyecandy" in that moment and even defended their doing so. I have never understood how this argument works, obviously I'm missing something. Because I momentarily focus my attention on someone for their physical attributes, I automa…

It's possible to recognize the attractive features of someone while still being conscious of their humanity. Obviously there are degrees of attention you can give someone based on their looks that goes from socially acceptable to socially unacceptable. I'm a man so I can't speak for women directly, but what I've gathered from the experiences of others is that women are interacted with on an attraction basis exponenti…

A description of the hula hooping from someone else at github:

> Probably worth mentioning that the hula hoop dancing happened at a Github party with a lot of people not from Github. It was also super badass hula hooping, not just regular dancing. Everyone was looking, men and women, because it was pretty awesome.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7408466

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#667

Post by foobarian » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:19 PM UTC

wsc981 wrote: post #594

shadowmint wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been broadly under the impression that the HR department was a waste of air, but I suppose conflict resolution is perhaps something they'd be useful for. ...maybe.

The main job of HR is prevent the company from entering lawsuits with (former) employees. Anything else is just window dressing. Most HR organizations like to act like they are an impartial judge in conflict situations, but they're on the company payroll after all. So while for a single employee HR might seem like a waste of air, it's elementary for any business with a reasonable number of employees.

Well there is also a whole bunch of really boring mundane tasks that take a lot of time, such as setting up and supporting health insurance plans, getting people into various directories, organizing the interviews, etc etc. I may look down on HR at times but boy am I glad we have them to do these things.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#668

Post by clavalle » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:19 PM UTC

gruntmaster9000 wrote: post #630

clavalle wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption underlying this analysis is that no merit exists outside of subjective value judgement. Furthermore, subjective value judgments are biased in favor of the existing privileged groups. Do I have that about right?

Sort of. “Merit” is more a measure of those groups’ definitions of success. Calling it a meritocracy overly simplifies the circumstances for that success, often reinforcing the power relationships.

So, how does one tease apart what is meant by the original definition of merit, let's call it 'accomplishment', from these subjective definitions of success? Or is that even possible?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#669

Post by efuquen » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:21 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #613

muglug wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the point she's making that she didn't fit the culture primarily because of her gender? And that any work culture where one's gender matters is a toxic culture in itself? A workplace just filled with happy young male developers is not necessarily a healthy environment, or one that necessarily has a good culture.

> Isn't the point she's making that she didn't fit the culture primarily because of her gender? It is, but the point a lot of people are making here is that maybe she sees the situation in a wrong way, as her perspective is a reflection of her gender, so she cannot really judge if the problems happened primarily because of her gender. Actually, the fact that the other female employees felt secure and relaxed enough t…

> It's also not necessarily an unhealthy/toxic environment.

Honestly this is very close to gender discrimination, which is clearly illegal. If you created an environment that only young male developers will enjoy how is that much different then explicitly saying you won't hire any female developers?

To me it's in a similar vein of when literacy tests were employed in the South to prevent African Americans from voting. It wasn't saying you couldn't vote if you were black but it had the same effect of denying most blacks suffrage anyway. So you're not saying women can't work here, but we're just going to encourage/promote a culture that isn't one most women would want to be a part of anyway.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#670

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 5:22 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #668

gruntmaster9000 wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of. “Merit” is more a measure of those groups’ definitions of success. Calling it a meritocracy overly simplifies the circumstances for that success, often reinforcing the power relationships.

So, how does one tease apart what is meant by the original definition of merit, let's call it 'accomplishment', from these subjective definitions of success? Or is that even possible?

> So, how does one tease apart what is meant by the original definition of merit, let's call it 'accomplishment', from these subjective definitions of success? Or is that even possible?

You can't. Merit -- including "success" or "accomplishment" -- is always a subjective value judgement. Even if there is an objective measure, the evaluation of the measure as something meaningful to measure (i.e., that the measure is one of merit or success) is a subjective value judgement.