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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#571

I can't believe that no one has spotted that she is exactly the same annoying feminist that forced the company to get rid of a rug because it used the term "meritocracy". http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug#awesm... Tbfh, she sounds like Adria Richards v2.0

I bet that rug really tied together the room too... All joking aside, that rug thing is pretty silly. "Meritocracy" is not code for "Straight White Males only." Nevertheless Horvath being feminist does not invalidate any unfair treatment she may have experienced should her claims be substantiated.

Let's go ahead and assume GitHub is a meritocracy.

If you "succeed" and do "well" on GitHub (what metric can we use? Lots of a stars? Getting your name out there?), what does that actually prove?

If GitHub is a meritocracy, what have the "winners" done to set them apart from the rest, and how does that translate into the professional world?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#572
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While the founder is right about avoiding dating someone in your own company This is one of my pet peeves. This is a professional setting and the employees are not 13. They should be mature enough to be able to handle their personal lives without bans or frown upons. Someone can't handle rejection? Who says he/she can handle criticism? What about disagreements? To me this is a personality problem that should be deal…

Relationships breaking down are messy at the best of times, toxic at their worst. More people than not, when faced with the collapse of a relationship, will act like a 13 year old than a rational adult. If the company is seen to have encouraged or even acknowledged the relationship it can create a huge liability, especially if one of the people involves feels like they got stiffed because of relationship issues (side…

What you say is true, but I don't believe a contract of employment entitles any company to tell someone who they can or cannot date.

If, for the reasons you describe, they wish to maintain a public position of "we not encourage dating coworkers" that's one thing, so long as they don't actually think they have any say in this matter.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone were to hula-hoop to music in my office, male or female, I am pretty sure there would be a lot of people looking on. Not sure where the line of "looking on" and "gawking" is in that situation.

If both are straight and male looking on. If both are gay and male looking on. If both are straight and female looking on. If both are straight and male is hoola hooping with female watching looking on. If both are straight and female is hoola hooping with male looking on gawking. Is this not obvious, We are all uncontrollable messes of hormones and the self-control of a 15 year old boy apparently. If I was at work a…

What is wrong with this culture of suppressing even the most basic sexual ideas to the point of closing eyes when a female starts to hola hoop. This is crazy!

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manager was allowed to stay?

Yes. Atmosphere in the company was pretty toxic after that event.

Why did the developers 'revolt'? People shouldn't date at the workplace but it seems like there's something missing here.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#575
post #368
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to recognize the attractive features of someone while still being conscious of their humanity. Obviously there are degrees of attention you can give someone based on their looks that goes from socially acceptable to socially unacceptable. I'm a man so I can't speak for women directly, but what I've gathered from the experiences of others is that women are interacted with on an attraction basis exponenti…

> to me it makes sense why this scene would be triggering for her It makes sense to me as well, but if I were her boss, I would ask her to take a more professional and less emotional perspective of the workplace (of course, after (hopefully having her problems presented in a clear manner and) solving the other issues that were causing her to feel unwelcome).

This is the core problem, though: it's difficult (impossible?) for someone to be professional when everyone around them is so unprofessional. Worse still when none of their claims are fully addressed by management.

There was no resolution here. I don't blame her for taking these steps to out Github.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#577
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once quit a senior dev role as the tech architect at the company had veto power on all code and blocked my work because I'd spelled the word dialog the US way, rather than the UK way (dialogue). This was not in a public interface, this was in variable names. Ignoring that every word in programming is in US English: color, gray, program. We were deadlocked for weeks, with him refusing to ship working code that fulfi…

Why was it so critical to spell it "dialog", rather than "dialogue", as the higher-ups in the project apparently preferred?

I once worked at a company that made code to be owned by the gov't of Canada. I'm not sure if the government imposed the rules, but we did have strict rules to use Canadian word versions. Though this was like 1999 so I'd be shocked if that's still the case.

Edit: not to imply a reason for the noted situation, just an example to lend some credence/reasoning elsewhere

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#578
post #553
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post really bothers me somehow. Edit: Figured out why. I don't understand why saying, "people will call me sexist for this" immediately validates your statement as "not intended to be sexist". >"If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity that I think most men ne…

> Does that entire paragraph not just objectify the wife and establish differences between the sexes based on anecdotal experience? Re objectification: couples get advice from their life partners. That doesn't mean this is their life partners only goal. Re: 'establish differences between the sexes based on anecdotal experience' is there anything ethically wrong with this? Would you prefer a citation be added, eg, 'ne…

>Re objectification: couples get advice from their life partners. That doesn't mean this is their life partners only goal.

Completely true, valid point.

>Re: 'establish differences between the sexes based on anecdotal experience' is there anything ethically wrong with this?

I would argue that there is something ethically wrong with this. Take this statement:

>" women think socially with a level of complexity that I think most men never approach."

Yeah, on it's face it's a compliment(I guess?), but all it really serves to do, in this context,(for me, might read totally different to you) is illustrate the differences between the two sexes. Where's any evidence that his assertion is true?

Anecdotal evidence is by definition flawed. I don't really understand where you're failing to see the potential for harm in this.

> Would you prefer a citation be added, eg, 'newborn female infants stare at faces more often than male newborn infants'?

Do you have a source stating that females raised in the same environment as males exhibited a higher level of social complexity? Because, yes, I would like to see that before changing my worldview based upon this persons statement.

>Or do you find the mere existence of differences between the sexes to be 'offensive'? In which case, you're more than welcome to be offended.

Not at all; what I find offensive is when people try to extrapolate meaning and form social constructs based upon differences that often aren't conclusively proven or even relevant. When I'm talking about these differences I don't mean boy-penis girl-vagina, I mean boy-brave/courageous/smart girl-cute/supportive/geeky.

In my opinion these social constructs are already so ingrained in our society that this will be just as long and drawn out a problem as racism. I mean just define Masculine and Feminine in your head.

I'm not trying to make a point here, or to white-knight, my original response was just how that post genuinely made me feel, I didn't like it.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#579
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify for many of you, you don't need someone shouting "I HATE WOMEN" for sexism to be occurring. The sexism in this scenario is subtle and persistent, something that likely tainted all of the workplace interactions at github, allowing a female employee's problems at work to be continually ignored. This eventually built up to the issue most people are focusing on, a founders spouse being allowed to harass an emp…

> The hula hooping moment was important because it visibly demonstrated her male coworkers lack of respect for women as people. They were unabashedly staring at their female coworkers as "eyecandy" in that moment and even defended their doing so. Totally disagree. If someone is hula hooping in a company that usually builds software to host version control repositories, they are doing something quite out of the ordina…

Your only source on this story is Horvath's recounting of it, and she says it was inappropriate. By what means do we have to question her assessment of the events? In questioning her, with no other information, you're saying "I don't believe you, you've irrationally overreacted". And that can only based not on the facts of the situation, but on your personal opinions of what "women" in aggregate are like. In other words, you're explicitly marginalizing Horvath's opinion because she is a woman.

This is how sexism works.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#580
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is difficult to say that Github is at fault from the information given, and I fear that's the conclusion that many were jumping to. Don't worry. Read the whole thread on this discussion. The only people who are jumping to conclusions are those assuming there is something wrong with Horvath's story. I have thought carefully about the article, and this is my conclusion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

> Second-guessing the motives and truth of this woman's story does nothing but undermine her, and undermine the confidence of others who may have similar stories (at GitHub or elsewhere). What the heck are you talking about? The story is hearsay at this point and armchair warriors are jumping to conclusions behind the anonymity of the internet. Second-guessing the motives and truth? Do you work at Github? Is this per…

The story is, by definition, not hearsay, since the woman is alleging that the events took place with her present.

Key point: she alleges that everyone was not calm and cool regarding hitting on a coworker. You miss the part where he didn't leave when asked, and never justified reverting her commits (to the point where she had to revert the revert).

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