Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit • Hacker News Board

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#341

Post by kybernetikos » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:08 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #136

gamblor956 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be the top comment. As long as sexism persists in the tech industry, it's going to drive women out and keep others away.

No way in hell should it be the top comment. I can't find any victim blaming at all in a quick skim, so if it's here it's not by any means a plurality opinion. bitops is being even worse and reactionary than they claim HN to be.

There was quite a lot of what I would consider to be victim blaming in the previous thread where it was less clear what the allegations were. Or at least, my impression of the thread was that there were a very high proportion of commenters saying we should reserve judgement and at the same time hypothesizing about all the ways that the woman might be at fault.

While this is all true (on the information we had in that thread, it was possible that the woman was the one at fault, and it's good to reserve judgement until more information arrives), it was really weird how many people felt the need to point these things out.

I do agree that this thread seems more balanced, although even in this thread people are surprisingly quick to point out that these problems are not 'sexism' (despite the fact that the situations described would have been an order of magnitude less likely to arise if she were a man).

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#342

Post by crassus » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:08 AM UTC

sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

> "And it seems like every single one of these problems could have been solved by a halfway competent manager."

One of the hazards of un-management

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#343

Post by rimantas » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:14 AM UTC

Cederfjard wrote: post #271

jd0 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify for many of you, you don't need someone shouting "I HATE WOMEN" for sexism to be occurring. The sexism in this scenario is subtle and persistent, something that likely tainted all of the workplace interactions at github, allowing a female employee's problems at work to be continually ignored. This eventually built up to the issue most people are focusing on, a founders spouse being allowed to harass an emp…

> The hula hooping moment was important because it visibly demonstrated her male coworkers lack of respect for women as people. They were unabashedly staring at their female coworkers as "eyecandy" in that moment and even defended their doing so. I have never understood how this argument works, obviously I'm missing something. Because I momentarily focus my attention on someone for their physical attributes, I automa…

You are not alone. I blame PC, overprotective upbringing and "I am offended by that" trend. As soon as some subject becomes taboo to discuss people lose the understanding why something is bad and start to treat everything related as bad and unacceptable. Reminds me of this: http://i.snag.gy/kdu77.jpg (doesn't matter if experiment was real or not). This is very prominent with sexism and racism—these words are losing the meaning really fast. Now merely acknowledging someones race is called racism. Same goes for gender. And god forbid you find someone attractive. I really don't get what kind of society these people want. The one where everybody walks covered in burqas? You are not allowed to look at attractive person—you will offend them. I wonder how soon a simple glance will accepted as a kind of sexual assault. You are not allowed to approach the person you like—it will be "unwanted advances". It's "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If woman will say that it makes her feel good when she senses attention she will be explained, that's just because patriarchal society made her to feel this way. More often than not those explaining will be males, ironically. What a terrible society to live, luckily it will die out soon for the lack of reproduction.

As for this story: it has nothing to do with sexism. Nothing at all. Actually the real sexists are the ones who think all this happened because of the sexism. Guys (and girls): these issues are much much more complex and deserve to be treated with much more respect instead of rubber stamping like it is common now. Women and non-white people can be assholes too and I would like to retain the right call them as such without being accused of sexism or racism. Though this right might be long gone. Quite often it is a fun mental experiment to reverse the genders or races and think how vastly different reactions would be (if there would be any). Imagine that black person says: "I am proud to be black!". Now imagine that the white person says "I am proud to be white". Now throw away you knee-jercky reaction and think about it.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#344

Post by bowlofpetunias » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:14 AM UTC

I wondered how long it would take for one of these "no management" cults to unravel.

Put people in charge (call them managers or not, whatever), and you may get the wrong people in charge.

Put no one in charge, and the douchebags, manipulators and sociopaths will end up domination the culture.

I prefer box #1, thankyouverymuch. At least those can be easily identified and removed before the whole thing has rotten to the core. And if I was part of a minority in such a company, like women generally are in tech startups, I would avoid #2 like the plague.

Also, this is just begging for a culture were the founders will remain the only authority. And founders are generally not known for being very good at the actual day to day running of a company.

The sexism is a red herring here btw. Could have been any form of bullying and manipulation.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#345

Post by banachtarski » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:15 AM UTC

yawz wrote: post #254

yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

>While the founder is right about avoiding dating someone in your own company This is one of my pet peeves. This is a professional setting and the employees are not 13. They should be mature enough to be able to handle their personal lives without bans or frown upons. Someone can't handle rejection? Who says he/she can handle criticism? What about disagreements? To me this is a personality problem that should be deal…

Not dipping the pen in company ink is a well-known and well-adopted adage.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#346

Post by kybernetikos » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:15 AM UTC

pbateman wrote: post #118

bitops wrote: post #53

As usual, another HN thread that perfectly exemplifies victim blaming and a collective burying of heads in the sand. There's a few people on here who seem to get it, but most don't. I'm sick of it. Goodbye, Hacker News.

I'm sick of it. Goodbye, Hacker News. I know this is going to come across as unfriendly, but I'm always bemused when people make these little plays for attention. It's a massive site, you're not one of the notable commenters, if HN isn't delivering value why not just stop reading it quietly rather than announcing it to the world?

You see it as a play for attention, I see it as an expression of disappointment in a community they otherwise like in the hope that that community will perform a little more introspection.

It seems somewhat dramatic to me too, but I also have found the comments on the stories around this issue somewhat disappointing. That was their way of communicating it, this comment is mine.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#347

Post by abalone » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:15 AM UTC

sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

It may well be that the greatest damage to GitHub here is not on the issue of sexism so much as their advocacy of lean management and organizational "freedom".

Although it may have sounded like the "cool teacher" way to address things by having your wife take an employee out for drinks to discuss grievances, clearly this should have been handled in a professional setting according to a clear grievance process. That could have led directly to policy changes (e.g. keep pull request comments professional, have management review reverts) and nipped the problem in the bud instead of getting Really Fucking Weird. That goes for any grievances against her as well, instead of being vented on Secret.

Even GitHub's VC backer (A16Z) has blogged about the need to have clear process when it comes to HR stuff.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#348

Post by hippiehippo » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:17 AM UTC

jd0 wrote: post #249

chanux wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, as a male, try to avoid staring at another female because I fear someone like Horvath accuses me of sexism. This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. PS: To avoid looking one-sided and narrow (which I believe I'm not) I really feel bad about this whole situation and the lady who had to go through that. Personally liked a github as a company.

And I, as a male, try not to stare at anybody because I'm not a fucking asshole.

So all people who don't confirm to your social norms are fucking assholes? Btw, did you ever travel to countries like Germany or Czech Republic? People there do stare. A lot. Nations of assholes, I guess.

I wonder what do you think about people who don't speak English or who don't eat their food with a forks but with other ustensils.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#349

Post by rimantas » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:17 AM UTC

ilovecomputers wrote: post #108

csense wrote: post #64

I don't think this was an instance of institutionalized sexism. Rather, the founder's wife seems like an unbalanced individual, and nobody effectively set any boundaries. The other founders and HR seemed unaware or unable to set the situation to right. As for her romantically inclined co-worker -- I don't see how his behavior qualifies as sexist or hostile. Merely a bit clueless, but isn't it to be expected that empl…

You're missing the point. From this story alone, it seems the company is run by individuals who never mentally developed out of high school. Those incidents you mentioned are merely a red flag of the immaturity of some of these people. Awkwardly hitting on an employee to a point of discomfort, messing with someone's work cause they turned you down to a date, creepily staring at an employee in the gym; you should at l…

"It's creepy only if you are unattractive."

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#350

Post by mejari » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 10:17 AM UTC

jd0 wrote: post #168

pbateman wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

socially inept Good to see we're staying classy. Next time you might like to work in a zinger about autism, neckbeards and/or fedora ownership.

You put those words in my mouth, buddy. To clarify, social ineptitude combined with a degree of self-assured narcissism, resulting in a total disregard for the opinions of other people which don't jive with the most "logical" worldview. It's possible to be socially introverted and still considerate to other people.

"You put those words in my mouth, buddy"

To be fair, just a few comments up you said

"I think you'll like this:" and then posted a link to a comic making fun of 'socially awkward', 'atheist', 'fedora wearers'.