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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#291

Post by jd0 »

Cederfjard wrote: post #271
jd0 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify for many of you, you don't need someone shouting "I HATE WOMEN" for sexism to be occurring. The sexism in this scenario is subtle and persistent, something that likely tainted all of the workplace interactions at github, allowing a female employee's problems at work to be continually ignored. This eventually built up to the issue most people are focusing on, a founders spouse being allowed to harass an emp…

> The hula hooping moment was important because it visibly demonstrated her male coworkers lack of respect for women as people. They were unabashedly staring at their female coworkers as "eyecandy" in that moment and even defended their doing so. I have never understood how this argument works, obviously I'm missing something. Because I momentarily focus my attention on someone for their physical attributes, I automa…

It's possible to recognize the attractive features of someone while still being conscious of their humanity. Obviously there are degrees of attention you can give someone based on their looks that goes from socially acceptable to socially unacceptable.

I'm a man so I can't speak for women directly, but what I've gathered from the experiences of others is that women are interacted with on an attraction basis exponentially more than men are, this also constantly ranging from socially acceptable to unacceptable, wanted and unwanted. It manifests in little ways, cat-calling, aggressive or unwanted flirtation, maybe a creepy controlling coworker suddenly confessing his love? My own mom told me about a time when a total stranger grabbed her butt in a store and walked off. It makes sense to me that many women would be extra-sensitive to scenarios like this. Men literally don't have to deal with interactions like this at that level so it's totally different when the gender roles are reversed, and it's rare that they are.

The importance of that scenario was that it was relative to her entire work experience at Github. Even if we assume the intentions of the male workers were totally golden and the hula-hoopers were totally fine with their gawking, to me it makes sense why this scene would be triggering for her.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#292

Post by cbsmith »

csense wrote: post #64

I don't think this was an instance of institutionalized sexism. Rather, the founder's wife seems like an unbalanced individual, and nobody effectively set any boundaries. The other founders and HR seemed unaware or unable to set the situation to right. As for her romantically inclined co-worker -- I don't see how his behavior qualifies as sexist or hostile. Merely a bit clueless, but isn't it to be expected that empl…

> As for her romantically inclined co-worker -- I don't see how his behavior qualifies as sexist or hostile. Merely a bit clueless, but isn't it to be expected that employees of a tech company will be somewhat socially awkward?

Oh please, that's about as sexist and as hostile as it gets between programmers.

I agree it should be expected that some employees of a tech company will be somewhat socially awkward --just as much as it should be expected that employees will be told that this kind of behaviour is totally unacceptable, and that companies ensure it doesn't happen.

It's hard to judge without all sides of the story, but the one side does not paint a pretty picture of Github.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#293

Post by buro9 »

sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

> Nebulous semi-employee with unspecified responsibilities related to a founder?

This is the point that stands out for me. That the wife is not an employee of Github but claims to be able to access private company chat records, and also is able to "work" from within the office and interact with the staff.

Even with allowances that company property remains company property and private chat rooms are in fact non-private to the company... there is no scenario in which a non-employee should have access to those chat rooms.

The wife, and the husband (founder), have displayed an incredible lack of professionalism here. There may even be a question about whether those acts are illegal if they are substantiated.

And for companies that use Github to host private repositories, the question should be asked very loud and clear... "Who can access private company data, why, and for what reason?".

If a non-employee can access information that is presumed (even by their own employees) to be private, then our (external companies) assumptions about what is private and secure at Github are weakened and demand very clear statements backed up with clear processes to reassure.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#295

Post by megablast »

sgentle wrote: post #235

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub. I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation! The article reads like an…

> "Oh, okay, I'll talk to him and make sure it stops."

Can I come live in your world where everything is solved by a quick talk.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#296

Post by cookiecaper »

jd0 wrote: post #249
chanux wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, as a male, try to avoid staring at another female because I fear someone like Horvath accuses me of sexism. This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. PS: To avoid looking one-sided and narrow (which I believe I'm not) I really feel bad about this whole situation and the lady who had to go through that. Personally liked a github as a company.

And I, as a male, try not to stare at anybody because I'm not a fucking asshole.

If someone is rendering a public performance, aren't you supposed to look at it? When does hula hooping in a public space transfer to a public performance? Is it public immediately because it's in plain sight? Does it only become public after an audience gathers and the hula hooper continues to hula hoop? What if someone sees the gathered audience and joins in so that they won't be considered rude for not taking interest in the public hula hooping performance?

It's not really as clear cut as "staring makes you an asshole." I've found that in a workplace people will have wildly variable interpretations of the same event. The only solution is to work with mature adults who can assume good faith and work out their own issues. This almost never happens, so instead companies create hyper-sanitized environments where everything is against the rules.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#297

Post by jd0 »

hueving wrote: post #278
jd0 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify for many of you, you don't need someone shouting "I HATE WOMEN" for sexism to be occurring. The sexism in this scenario is subtle and persistent, something that likely tainted all of the workplace interactions at github, allowing a female employee's problems at work to be continually ignored. This eventually built up to the issue most people are focusing on, a founders spouse being allowed to harass an emp…

>allowing a female employee's problems at work to be continually ignored. Who is to say that it was only a female employee's problems? It sounds like the wife is a nut case and she could very well have bothered other employees. There is no evidence here that her requests were being ignored because she is a female. >The hula hooping moment was important because it visibly demonstrated her male coworkers lack of respec…

You're taking what I said a little too literally. Take a look at my response to another commenter where I clarify my hula-hoop statement:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7408735

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#298

Post by scotty79 »

jd0 wrote: post #247
yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

To clarify for many of you, you don't need someone shouting "I HATE WOMEN" for sexism to be occurring. The sexism in this scenario is subtle and persistent, something that likely tainted all of the workplace interactions at github, allowing a female employee's problems at work to be continually ignored. This eventually built up to the issue most people are focusing on, a founders spouse being allowed to harass an emp…

I think, if anything, the incident that triggered her leaving was an indication of how safe other girls at the company felt at the same time when she was bullied by the founders wife till she broke.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#299

Post by gojomo »

iamwil wrote: post #251

Does it seem like it's not the whole story? It seems like there's a piece of the story missing from before the wife's chat over beers. It doesn't seem like the wife of a boss would ask a specific employee to one-on-one beers, unless she had a specific topic in mind. And boasting about pulling strings at Github seems like an unlikely purpose. To me, it sounds like something happened that was unmentioned. And the wife…

Obviously it's only one side of a situation that spiraled out of control. Even if that one side comes from a generally reasonable, trustworthy person trying to give a full and balanced account – it will miss the mental states, internal rationales, and significant details that the "other side" experienced.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#300

Post by testrun »

klodolph wrote: post #35
[deleted] wrote: post #5

[deleted]

This seems like a very common way to dismiss complaints of sexism, whether those complaints are valid or invalid. Could someone explain why? I remember an similar complaint against a woman who said she was groped at a conference. What, is she expected to get a video of him groping her? There's a reason why so much sexism happens behind closed doors, off the record, or just in person when nobody else is nearby. These…

Did you read your own sentence before posting?

>>This seems like a very common way to dismiss complaints of sexism, whether those complaints are valid or invalidIf the person has an invalid complaint, it means she is lying and there is no sexism.

So yes, you do need both sides of the story.

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