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Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

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Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#41

Post by wernercd »

byoung2 wrote: post #38
dragonwriter wrote: post #25

> If a 10-year-old can become an ace web programmer, why can’t a liberal arts graduate? Most 10-year-olds can't become ace web programmers (well, given an infinite time horizon, maybe they can, but then they aren't 10-year-olds anymore.) For, largely completely different reasons, most liberal arts graduates probably can't either. Of course, some can (I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Po…

I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Political Science. Then again, I was a programming long before I got that degree I have a BA in English, but I've been programming since I was 7, starting with BASIC, then on my TI-82 in junior high, C in high school, Perl, PHP and Javascript in college. I work full time as a software engineer now, and I make a good living doing it.

On the same token, you could build cars your whole life... get a liberal arts degree... then say all LA's can easily become mechanics.

After all, what's easy for you is easy for everyone right?

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#42

Post by a-priori »

ForHackernews wrote: post #31
dragonwriter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering") is a liberal art! Arguably, but a BS in Computer Science isn't a Liberal Arts degree, its a science degree that is named that to distinguish it from a Liberal Arts degree (BA, the "Arts" refers to Liberal Arts.) Of course, if you have a BA in Computer Science, that is a Liberal Arts degree.

I would argue that in most cases, the BA/BS distinction is a meaningless artifact of what credential your university happens to offer. For example, MIT only awards BS degrees to undergrads, so you could major in French Studies or history and get a BS: http://mitadmissions.org/discover/majors In contrast, a school like Amherst only awards BA degrees, so you'd wind up with a BA in physics, chem or computer science: htt…

My alma mater, the University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada, gave the choice of three degrees: a BA (CS), a BSc (CS), and a Bachelor of Computing.

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#43

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

noname123 wrote: post #28
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could afford to continue and get a 4 year CS degree, I'd prefer myself to get a BA, or get a CS degree at a non engineering school.

At most LACs, you can't get a BS degree. With that being side, my experience with liberal arts CS education (at Wesleyan) is ironically that it was too much CS because "liberal arts is suppose to be self-enrichment and theory". We went into a lot of theory and math (e.g., functional language, language design, automata, algorithm proof of correctness) and even the "practicum" courses was fairly academic (information t…

That goes back to the perpetual debate between applied and theory classes. I'm not sure if it has to do with LACs vs research universities or whatnot.

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#44

Post by nirnira »

dragonwriter wrote: post #32
nirnira wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never found these "brain plasticity" arguments very compelling. I had no motivation or context for learning when I was young (0-20) and while I might have done well in school tests and read a lot of books, I don't think I really absorbed anything in any depth, or thought in any particularly interesting or challenging ways - I certainly never achieved anything which would have required so much willpower and focus…

The fact that it is possible for a motivated 25-year-old to be better at learning something than the same person as an unmotivated 10-year-old does not refute the fact that human brain development is such that certain forms of learning are much easier at 10 than at 25.

Neuroplasticity primarily relates to the evolved ability of young children to rapidly, effortlessly acquire basic, evolutionarily critical behaviours - language systems and other core social behaviour necessary for tight social integration (and later various more complex but still critical secondary social behaviours) in a small hunter gatherer pack essentially - all picked up subconsciously from the social environment.

The important difference is that all of this acquisition is a result of tens of thousands of years of consistent natural selection. It's hard-wired because humans have needed these things, and children have needed them as fast as possible, for a long long time.

The things humans attempt to learn in modern times however (non-native languages, formal systems of logic, the ability to argue and reason in complex fashions, the ability to program complex systems) are completely evolutionarily unprecedented, and the result is clear: children are not able to acquire these behaviours effortlessly. They don't just rub off. Instead they (generally) require focussed, extensive supervision and tuition from humans that have already put in the hard work of mastering them.

So the relevance of neuroplasticity still seems small to me.

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#45

Post by dpeck »

ForHackernews wrote: post #31
dragonwriter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering") is a liberal art! Arguably, but a BS in Computer Science isn't a Liberal Arts degree, its a science degree that is named that to distinguish it from a Liberal Arts degree (BA, the "Arts" refers to Liberal Arts.) Of course, if you have a BA in Computer Science, that is a Liberal Arts degree.

I would argue that in most cases, the BA/BS distinction is a meaningless artifact of what credential your university happens to offer. For example, MIT only awards BS degrees to undergrads, so you could major in French Studies or history and get a BS: http://mitadmissions.org/discover/majors In contrast, a school like Amherst only awards BA degrees, so you'd wind up with a BA in physics, chem or computer science: htt…

These days isn't BS more or less shorthand for "took calculus and a real lab science" these days?

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#46

Post by joesmo »

dragonwriter wrote: post #25

> If a 10-year-old can become an ace web programmer, why can’t a liberal arts graduate? Most 10-year-olds can't become ace web programmers (well, given an infinite time horizon, maybe they can, but then they aren't 10-year-olds anymore.) For, largely completely different reasons, most liberal arts graduates probably can't either. Of course, some can (I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Po…

They can and do. By the droves. Great engineers come not only from liberal arts but from a variety of disciplines. The best engineers I've worked with did not have CS or CE degrees and neither do I. Some of them had nothing but a high school diploma or GED. Formal training is certainly not needed, and in many cases, it's a hamper. Also, the money wasted on such is much better spent elsewhere, especially considering the curriculum and many colleges/universities, one that is hardly up to date and does not prepare students for real world development.

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#47

Post by bitwize »

Hum majors who take up coding are more than welcome to try,but they should be warned: programming is hard. It's easier than multivariable calculus, but there there ARE right and wrong answers, and you WILL come a point when you'll hit a wall and be frustrated, and you need to have the perseverance to get through those points. If this is to be your career you need to commit to a virtual lifetime of learning and growing.

Also, start with Python. I know some of you think it's neat to jump right in with JavaScript and make cool animations and dynamic web pages, but -- I'm from the future. You should start with Python.

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#48

Post by pasbesoin »

bsirkia wrote: post #7

A more accurate title would be "Studied Humanities, Will Code". I have a liberal arts degree from Middlebury College where I studied Computer Science, so it shouldn't be too surprising that I will code (and do code full-time professionally).

OT, but 7 weeks at the Middlebury Summer Languages program let me go from zero French to placing into third year French when I returned to my... um, "full-time" college the following fall. (After fighting them because they initially insisted I couldn't have progressed beyond a second year placement.)

Abilities and performance varied significantly, but the program let you make rapid progress if you were of a mind to.

If I may ask (in part because I consider returning to that area of Vermont), how did you find the Computer Sciences program?

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#49

Post by dragonwriter »

nirnira wrote: post #44
dragonwriter wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that it is possible for a motivated 25-year-old to be better at learning something than the same person as an unmotivated 10-year-old does not refute the fact that human brain development is such that certain forms of learning are much easier at 10 than at 25.

Neuroplasticity primarily relates to the evolved ability of young children to rapidly, effortlessly acquire basic, evolutionarily critical behaviours - language systems and other core social behaviour necessary for tight social integration (and later various more complex but still critical secondary social behaviours) in a small hunter gatherer pack essentially - all picked up subconsciously from the social environme…

> The things humans attempt to learn in modern times however (non-native languages, formal systems of logic, the ability to argue and reason in complex fashions, the ability to program complex systems) are completely evolutionarily unprecedented, and the result is clear: children are not able to acquire these behaviours effortlessly.

At least in the case of non-native languages, while it may not be "effortless", every study I've seen has indicated that it is much easier for children to learn them.

Re: Have Liberal Arts Degree, Will Code

#50

Post by dragonwriter »

ForHackernews wrote: post #35
dragonwriter wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in most cases BA vs. BS is meaningful -- schools that offer only BS degrees have different kinds of core programs than schools that offer only BA degrees, and there are plenty of schools that offer both kinds of degrees, sometimes in the same major field of study .

I guess if a single school offers both degrees in the same field, with different requirements, that would be a meaningful distinction. However, in my experience, it will still be a distinction without a difference, since very few employers would understand or care about it.

> However, in my experience, it will still be a distinction without a difference, since very few employers would understand or care about it.

This presumes that the only meaningful effect of a college education is a vocational certification that is presented to employers.

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