STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp • Hacker News Board

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#161

Post by digita88 » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

mkaziz wrote: post #42

moron4hire wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cultural fit" is just another name for racism, sexism, and ageism. Yeah, all of those things can be culture. Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate based on college attendance than on race? What else is cultural fit? "Sorry, you don't fit our culture of being heterosexual here." We're supposed to be adults. We're supposed to know how to get along and play nicely with others, regardless of how different we a…

I think that's invalid. If you find someone who's a great programmer, but obviously won't get alone with your teammates, then you definitely should not hire him. Team dynamics are as important than individual skill levels.

Cultural fit is not that important for short term hires (ie 6 month contract) because you basically need someone that has the ability to do short term wins. It's only when you look beyond ie 2 or so years when cultural fit (or lack of) becomes more prominent.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#162

Post by mcguire » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

I recently had to have one aspect of this issue pointed out to me, since it was never a major concern of mine and I'd been completely blind to it: seniority.

I do not currently work for a start-up, or even what you would typically consider a technology company. However, the group I work with, the program in the businessy sense, is not very old. The original kernel of the group began less than ten years ago, and has grown in fits and spurts. Many, if not most, of the "founders" are still here, as well.

When the program started, many of the founders were young and relatively inexperienced. Today, they're still young but are more experienced---in this specific project. And at least some of the people who have been hired since are older or more experienced---at least in terms of having worked in a wider variety of environments---or both.

As a result, in some situations, someone with more experience and skills is being supervised, managed, or lead by someone with significantly less experience. The situation isn't improved by weird incentives that place emphasis on some jobs more than others, similar to the cliche about sales versus engineering.

So, how's this for a weird situation: people who would be senior are doing junior work, because "job market"; people who would likely be junior are in charge, because of good timing (For those of you who plan to be future Zuckerbergs, what are you going to do when you really do need to hire a rocket scientist?); people who are ready to move up can't, because nobody is leaving or dying off; and people who might be better off leaving won't, because they would be taking a pay and prestige cut.

[Note: I am absolutely not talking about myself. I knew what I was doing when I got here. I have no real urge to "move up" in the world. I'm a technical guy. I'm mechanism, not policy.]

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#163

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:55 PM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #62

raverbashing wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" That's the big problem in most interviews - candidates treat it like a test, where there's just the right answer, and nothing else. " Humm no. Google interviews are (or at least were) pretty much right or wrong answers mostly. The best interviewers could do what you say, but for the most part, no.

I have to ask - is that your personal experience, or what you read about the interviews?

That fits with my personal experience, and also my dad's when he interviewed with larger tech companies in the '90s. (For example Microsoft).

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#164

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:56 PM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #58

raverbashing wrote: post #12

Well, it's really simple FB's (and Google's and Yahoo's) definition of talent is whoever passes their "quiz show" interview However, yes, you don't need to know the worse case complexity of shell sort for most tasks, especially at the beginning of a project where load demands are smaller.

Here's the odd thing - if I meet a candidate who knows about shellsort, I'd already be impressed. Many people I interview have trouble with much more basic concepts than that. And of course, it is worth keeping in mind that when you hire an employee that hopefully at some point, the load demands are higher. And it's kind of awkward if your product hits rapid growth, but your engineers are currently busy learning abou…

That's an "average airspeed of a swallow" question. The correct answer is not an answer, but another question.

"With what gap sequence?"

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#165

Post by jarrett » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:57 PM UTC

Speaking from personal experience, it is hard to find engineers who can truly take a project and run with it.

For any given job posting, there are typically hundreds of applicants. Yet often, not a single one of the applicants could build a non-trivial application without intensive mentoring. Many of them couldn't do it even with mentoring.

I don't know what this says about our economy. Maybe nothing--maybe it just says something about the nature of engineering. I can offer only my anecdotes. I'm not in a position to draw from those anecdotes a conclusion about what our economy needs.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#166

Post by mikaraento » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:58 PM UTC

Tohhou wrote: post #70

doktrin wrote: post #2

I wonder if we as an industry will continue to practice almost blatant age discrimination as the current generation of engineers grows older. If we continue to obsess over youth, the job market will be remarkably unpleasant 15 years from now.

Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. Either it's really a grand conspiracy like some claim or the situation is not so simple. I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their exper…

Although I roughly agree with the sentiment ('if you think everybody else is leaving money at the table, you should be picking it up rather than complaining about it') - there is evidence to the contrary.

A large part of the post-WWII economic growth of the Soviet Union has been attributed to the integration of women into the labour force - and the final stagnation to the fact that at that point there were no more women to integrate, everybody was already working.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#167

Post by 100k » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 5:59 PM UTC

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #140

Brian Acton's rejection by Facebook is used as a pro argument for the idea that tech companies are just pretending to not find qualified candidates, when there are plenty. I am not sure which way it is but the argument used is flawed. Brian Acton never stated that he went to Facebook to be a programmer. Not even a senior one. At that moment he already had managerial experience, having lead large dev teams at Yahoo. I…

Thank you for pointing this out. I've seen no indication that he interviewed as a programmer at Facebook or Twitter. Considering he was managing a large team at Yahoo, it's unlikely that he would be. He might even have been interviewing for a director or VP-level position.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#168

Post by GabrielF00 » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 6:11 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #157

GabrielF00 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If any parents are out there, please don't do this. Your children are independent adults and they have their own values and goals. They are not an investment opportunity or a vessel for your own unfulfilled aspirations. If you make your kids feel that you're disappointed in them you're just going to make them miserable and resentful and you'll have a lousy relationship as adults. Please value your children's happines…

It's a fine line that's hard to walk. In stark contrast to my asian parents, my wife had hippie Oregonian parents who said "do whatever makes you happy!" She regrets a little that they never gave her the information and support she needed to pursue Ivy-league colleges. It's not your job as a parent to prioritize happiness over prestige and money, just as its not your job to prioritize the other way. What you bring to…

I think the key word in what I wrote is "adult". Whatever fine line may exist with kids, at some point people start to value their independence and you do more harm then good by trying to pressure them.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#169

Post by sizzle » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 6:13 PM UTC

leobelle wrote: post #73

glesica wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, more education will enable a good developer to be even better. It's doesn't seem to help a struggling developer in any shape or form. In my (limited) experience, the people who struggled in undergrad run screaming away from any possibility of doing grad school (my experience here is consistent across econ and CS). The people who were good at the field consider grad school because the psychic costs of…

> take a look at the school her or she attended and stop interviewing people from that school, problem solved. This is really bad advice, because much about learning programming is about an individual effort. It has little if anything to do with the school. > If you find a person with an MS who can't pass a simple programming test You actually need more than a simple programming test that solves a single problem. You…

people have interview/test anxiety, so I agree that one test isn't enough to evaluate

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#170

Post by doktrin » Mon, Mar 10, 2014, 6:25 PM UTC

Tohhou wrote: post #155

doktrin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field? > [older people] are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are bec…

>Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field? The people who claim that women are discriminated against purely based on gender. If women really are being discriminated based on gender, and companies are hiring less qualified men in favor of more qualified women, then someone should be able to hire up all of the women who are being snubbed by all of the sexist companies…

> Unless of course if this isn't about age or sex. I'm female and not getting any younger by the way. But I still don't buy the bull others try to sell.

You're rebutting a straw man.

> No startup is a sure thing. Younger people are less risk averse.

Again, a moot point. If an employee is applying to work for a startup, they're acknowledging the risk. The risk, by the way, is negligible for employees.

> It's not that a company wants people who will take risks it's that older people want more of a sure thing. They walk in and expect a salary which matches their years of experience, while most places hiring have no use for their experience.

This is a contrived example. Furthermore, it doesn't make sense. By a "sure thing" do you mean salary vs. equity? I can assure you most young engineers also value salary.

> Their experience would add no value to their business, and so hiring a younger person who does not demand such a high salary is a better option.

What are you basing this on? It reads like a caricature.

> Clearly if they believe that hiring older people is such a good move they should be able to make a lot of money.

I already addressed this. If you're intent on repeating your original claim, we'll just have to agree to disagree.