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STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

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Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#41

Post by CognitiveLens »

gallamine wrote: post #30
chollida1 wrote: post #8

Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…

> their area of specialization doesn't really help in the role I'm hiring Perhaps you should instead consider that their specialization is a specific example of them applying themselves to a difficult new problem and solving it. It seems unlikely to be able to constantly hire people already experienced with what you're doing. Wouldn't you rather hire someone who's demonstrated an ability to learn something new and su…

Agreed. It's disappointing that there is a general skepticism of newly minted PhD's, since the degree generally involves extensive problem solving, independent thinking, self-organizing, commitment to a specified goal, receptiveness to feedback, critical eye of both one's own work and that of others, and the ability to communicate those ideas effectively.

Those are powerful tools. If the candidate wants a job that exclusively involves doing things related to their narrow field of study, then there is probably going to be a problem, but unless you haven't communicated the job description effectively, they're not applying for a job as an academic - they know exactly where to go if they want to pursue that career path.

Disclaimer: newly-minted PhD here, with no particular need to apply my dissertation topic directly to my software engineering work.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#42

Post by mkaziz »

moron4hire wrote: post #18
cletus wrote: post #11

This post is largely about discrimination and uses Brian Acton as a timely centerpiece. The truth is however more complex (IMHO): - Culture matters a lot in hiring. By this I mean a Stanford grad is much more likely to hire another Stanford grad in a field of qualified candidates. This isn't simply a form of nepotism as such. Two grads from the same college will share a larger common cultural base; - The culture the…

"Cultural fit" is just another name for racism, sexism, and ageism. Yeah, all of those things can be culture. Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate based on college attendance than on race? What else is cultural fit? "Sorry, you don't fit our culture of being heterosexual here." We're supposed to be adults. We're supposed to know how to get along and play nicely with others, regardless of how different we a…

I think that's invalid. If you find someone who's a great programmer, but obviously won't get alone with your teammates, then you definitely should not hire him. Team dynamics are as important than individual skill levels.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#43

Post by mattgreenrocks »

tomp wrote: post #33
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Too far along in their career can also be tough. Often this is due just to salary demands not fitting a junior role. Why are there not enough roles for senior devs? It's not like someone with ten years of experience wants to do the same thing over and over. It's like experience is undesirable in the tech industry.

No, the thing is that there are not enough "interesting" and "complex" things to do - industry doesn't usually need to scale an app to the size of WhatsApp or Twitter, and even when it does, a handful of senior people managing a team of junior devs usually suffice. So, experience usually isn't really a benefit (after 3-5 years of experience), and can be a detriment for the reason you mention (boredom with doing the s…

This is horrible. Maybe I should suck it up, but it's not my fault industry has zero imagination.

What are alternatives? I want to be in R&D, something that America doesn't seem to believe much in.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#44

Post by potatolicious »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #39
moron4hire wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cultural fit" is just another name for racism, sexism, and ageism. Yeah, all of those things can be culture. Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate based on college attendance than on race? What else is cultural fit? "Sorry, you don't fit our culture of being heterosexual here." We're supposed to be adults. We're supposed to know how to get along and play nicely with others, regardless of how different we a…

And "cultural fit" can also be code for classism. Too bad for you that you didn't go to Stanford, Harvard, etc.

Yeah, with respect to cletus, what he stated aren't reasons, they're excuses. Let's do a little bit of search and replace and see how these statements read:

- Gender matters a lot in hiring. By this I mean a woman is much more likely to hire another woman in a field of qualified candidates. This isn't simply a form of nepotism as such. Two people from the same gender will share a larger common cultural base;

- The race the founders bring shapes the organization. Many startups are started by whites. It shouldn't surprise you that this biases the makeup of their workforces and what they look for;

We wouldn't accept either of the above as a valid excuse for poor hiring practices, even though both statement are true. In modern society we acknowledge that it's all too easy to hire people like oneself, deliberately or otherwise - this is why we go out of our way to minimize the effects of these biases in our hiring.

The tech industry on the other hand seems to celebrate it to the point where "cultural fit" is the core of hiring practice. A lot of the ridiculous Silicon Valley stereotypes come from the immense monoculture it runs.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#45

Post by digita88 »

chollida1 wrote: post #8

Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…

In regards to a newly minted PhD, it invokes training someone who has spent 10+ years (or even their whole lives) in academia. Other items to look out for:

- If the only projects they produced have been for academia or they have had a history of starting AND not finishing multiple side/non-academia projects

- Little to no involvement in group work or publications (which makes me think - what have you been doing during the 4-5 years?)

- Another item I have noticed was that an applicant's PhD thesis was very well written yet when I read the Masters thesis and any other written documentation produced, the grammar is less than average, even poor! Which makes me think of potential 'help' involved that polished their PhD. So look for inconsistencies.

- I found out that they registered a domain name Dr back even before they started. Who the heck does that?

Plus various other issues in conflict with the newly minted PhDs who have just entered industry and not being given things on a silver platter ($$$ and respect due to title). Give them a year or two in industry and see how they shape up.

Disclaimer: Hired a newly minted PhD, observations based on one person so I don't claim this is based on all. I would consider newly minted PhDs/PhDs but after the same rigorous checks I would make with all the other candidates.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#47

Post by denzil_correa »

gallamine wrote: post #30
chollida1 wrote: post #8

Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…

> their area of specialization doesn't really help in the role I'm hiring Perhaps you should instead consider that their specialization is a specific example of them applying themselves to a difficult new problem and solving it. It seems unlikely to be able to constantly hire people already experienced with what you're doing. Wouldn't you rather hire someone who's demonstrated an ability to learn something new and su…

> Wouldn't you rather hire someone who's demonstrated an ability to learn something new and succeed at it?

Personally, I don't think recruiters get this point.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#48

Post by danielweber »

mkaziz wrote: post #42
moron4hire wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cultural fit" is just another name for racism, sexism, and ageism. Yeah, all of those things can be culture. Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate based on college attendance than on race? What else is cultural fit? "Sorry, you don't fit our culture of being heterosexual here." We're supposed to be adults. We're supposed to know how to get along and play nicely with others, regardless of how different we a…

I think that's invalid. If you find someone who's a great programmer, but obviously won't get alone with your teammates, then you definitely should not hire him. Team dynamics are as important than individual skill levels.

People of vastly different cultures can easily work together, as long as they aren't assholes.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#49

Post by mccr8 »

roberjo wrote: post #5

No one seems to want to discuss the idea that Yahoo! and Facebook were simply adhering to their illegal agreement to not poach talent from each other. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/01/15/silicon_valle...

I haven't seen any mention of Facebook participating in the hiring cartel in these various news reports, including the one you linked to.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#50

Post by moron4hire »

mkaziz wrote: post #42
moron4hire wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cultural fit" is just another name for racism, sexism, and ageism. Yeah, all of those things can be culture. Why should it be any less wrong to discriminate based on college attendance than on race? What else is cultural fit? "Sorry, you don't fit our culture of being heterosexual here." We're supposed to be adults. We're supposed to know how to get along and play nicely with others, regardless of how different we a…

I think that's invalid. If you find someone who's a great programmer, but obviously won't get alone with your teammates, then you definitely should not hire him. Team dynamics are as important than individual skill levels.

That might hold water if every company I've ever worked for hired much more than just self-diagnosed-with-Aspergers', white-guy assholes. I've never seen a group of programmers get along. "So-and-so should be fired/shouldn't be hired because we just don't get along" is not an acceptable excuse. Any other industry and your boss will tell you that you better learn to get along.

This is Kindergarten level issues here. You're supposed to know how to tie your own shoes and play nicely with others by the time you're 6 years old. Why do we continue to let the tech industry endorse childish behavior in the work environment?

EDIT: The one job I hated the most was the one where I was hired because I was a "good cultural fit". Turns out, they thought I was of the "culture" that enjoyed working free overtime. Nerf guns and free soda weren't enough to keep me in the office after 6pm, so I started to get squeezed out, culturally.

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