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Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

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61–70 of 103 posts

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Expert" or not, the arguments he's making here are not only obviously wrong, but also almost certainly uneducated. Judge what somebody says, not who he is.

I agree, you are clearly more intelligent then him! While what you say may or may not be wrong. It's his opinion and regardless of what you think about it. It's hard to call him uneducated.

His remarks are uneducated, not the person himself. I don't know him as a person well enough to judge that.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#62
post #31

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#Is_Bitcoin_a_Ponzi_scheme.3F As mentioned in the link, Bitcoin certainly has tremendous value beyond simply making early adopters rich. If you don't believe it, I encourage you to listen to some of Andreas Antonopoulos' arguments about Bitcoin as a network vs Bitcoin as a currency. Bitcoin provides a vast number of benefits as a technology beyond simply being a "currency."

He probably made a mistake evoking Ponzi's name (although he never actually called it a Ponzi scheme, which it clearly isn't). But I think when people bring up Ponzi and bitcoins, the idea is closer to a bubble mentality where adopters are buying bitcoins to profit, not to use it as a currency ("bitcoin isn’t means of payment as few transactions in Bitcoin. And given its volatility all who accept it convert it right…

Practical applications of Bitcoin (as a network) are popping up all the time, but it's true that they are still in their infancy. That doesn't mean the value isn't there.

If value were judged purely on current implementation or common practice, then most of the startups mentioned on this site would never have the chance to become anything worthwhile. We invest in great ideas that hold promise because sooner or later, those ideas will take flight and become part of our lives. Bitcoin is no different.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#63
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Expert" or not, the arguments he's making here are not only obviously wrong, but also almost certainly uneducated. Judge what somebody says, not who he is.

None of his observations are wrong, how they are uneducated?

All of them are wrong. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7373804

EDIT: They are uneducated, in that any cursory research into the concept and history of Bitcoin would make it blatantly obvious that his remarks are wrong. There are two possibilities here; either he is being willfully ignorant, or he simply hasn't done his homework well enough. Given his reputation, I'm betting on the latter. The "uneducated" bit simply derives from him literally not having educated himself on the matter.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#64
post #33

Bitcoin is a scarcity-based currency, it's kind of a deflationary spiral, people save and don't spend their bitcoins. We desperately need a digital currency, it's the future... How could we solve this issue ?

Dogecoin is inflationary. You can use that if you wish.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#65
post #35

at times like this i wish the supporters of bitcoin hadn't wedded themselves so thoroughly to libertarian ideology. they've turned this into a ideological debate when in fact it should just be treated like a cool new technology that could benefit everyone. i say this as someone who thinks bitcoin has the power to change the world but also believes that markets need regulation in order to prevent massive destruction d…

> "at times like this i wish the supporters of bitcoin hadn't wedded themselves so thoroughly to libertarian ideology."

"Bitcoin supporters" are not a homogenous group.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#66
post #15

And in other news, global debt now exceeds $100 Trillion dollars - up 40% over the last 7 years: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-09/global-debt-exceeds... . Which is the bigger Ponzi?

Ponzi's not really the right word for either thing. The huge growth of debt is a sign that inflation has been too low for too long in too many places. As long as the ECB and the Fed treat 2% as scary-high inflation, paying back debt becomes far more difficult. To start solving the debt problem, the central banks should start targetting 4-5% inflation for a decade or so, and allow it to go a little above the target, r…

> To start solving the debt problem, the central banks should start targetting 4-5% inflation for a decade or so,

Wouldn't that just cause lenders to increase their interest rates?

> Deflationary regimes favor hoarding, make it impossible to invest,

Most sound investments yield returns way above inflation, and they would also yield returns way above deflation

> and ultimately benefit only the wealthy

Unlike the current system?

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#67
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't 80% of world wide used currency all speculation and only 20% used in services and products ? I'm talking about the trillions of derivatives market ..

That depends on whether you mean "M0" or "M3". Retail payments are now a little over 50% electronic: http://www.paymentscouncil.org.uk/media_centre/press_release... , so that's bank money rather than paper/metal currency. Forex trading is huge: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/forex-market-size-traders-adva... : again, held on account rather than actual notes and coins changing hands. That's not even counting derivative…

Interesting. Thanks.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#68
post #33

Bitcoin is a scarcity-based currency, it's kind of a deflationary spiral, people save and don't spend their bitcoins. We desperately need a digital currency, it's the future... How could we solve this issue ?

I don't see how a deflationary currency is a problem. As far as I can tell, the only ones who benefit from the "money has to be in constant circulation" adage, is those who gain a profit off every transaction made. Money is meant to be a representative token to make trading easier; I fail to see how it makes any sense to "encourage spending" in itself.

A really big factor is that people get upset when the number describing their wages goes down.

Businesses are also disinclined to lower their prices (this isn't a rule, sure businesses lower prices, it's a description of long term aggregate behavior).

Both of those things are things that must happen for an economy to function with a deflationary currency.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#69

One problem that I think is salient about Bitcoin is that it's just not that useful . It's supposed to be a currency, but no one's actually using it for currency. They're just gambling on it, hoping to take advantage of other people's mistakes to make their own money. It's a zero-sum game, and it's destructive. People are just playing around with the electronic version of Monopoly money. The driving force behind curr…

> It's supposed to be a currency, but no one's actually using it for currency. They're just gambling on it, hoping to take advantage of other people's mistakes to make their own money. It's a zero-sum game, and it's destructive. People are just playing around with the electronic version of Monopoly money.

Source for that? I regularly pay for things with BTC, and part of my salary is paid out in BTC.

Or are you perhaps mistaking a particular subset of Bitcoin "users" (speculators) for "the entire Bitcoin ecosystem"?

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#70

- It's false that bitcoin isn't a means of payment. People DO use it as payment. - It's false that it's not a medium of savings. It has reservation demand which is the only reason it has a price. It does not matter that it has "no assets in it", whatever that confused statement means. The dollar also no longer has any asset backing. The medium of savings role exists while people perceive there is value in holding a m…

| It's false that bitcoin isn't a means of payment. People DO use it as payment.

But places that accept bitcoin aren't holding on to it. They transfer immediately to local currency (because their suppliers can't be paid in bitcoin). So currently* bitcoin is more a means of money transfer than it is a currency in itself.

* This might eventually change if suppliers are willing to accept bitcoin too.

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