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Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

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Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#41
post #12
post #2

Are all currencies ponzi games? Seems to me that the deciding factor is: what percentage of Bitcoin's transactions are actual transactions for actual goods and services vs. what percentage are transactions related to speculation on Bitcoin itself. That is very hard to measure, especially since at least a double-digit percentage of transactions belong to the illicit economy.

100% of transactions in bitcoin could be for legitimate goods and services, and his point would still stand. Its not a currency if all transactions are being translated to other currencies immediately afterwards. If that were the case, it would simply be a means of payment. Bitcoins would be no more an independent currency than the money in your paypal account.

"all transactions are being translated to other currencies immediately afterwards"

Many merchants that accept Bitcoin are currently converting as you say via services like BitPay, but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that all transactions are being converted.

As for Bitcoin vs Paypal: one basic difference is that money in a Paypal account is denominated in terms of fiat, and as such can be considered fungible with fiat. Bitcoin is not inherently tied to the value of any another currency, so it clearly has a more independent role (not to mention the numerous [1]other advantages).

[1] https://blockchain.info/wallet/paypal-vs-bitcoin

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#42
- It's false that bitcoin isn't a means of payment. People DO use it as payment.

- It's false that it's not a medium of savings. It has reservation demand which is the only reason it has a price. It does not matter that it has "no assets in it", whatever that confused statement means. The dollar also no longer has any asset backing. The medium of savings role exists while people perceive there is value in holding a monetary good in the hope it will appreciate in the future. They perceive it will appreciate because it has comparative advantages to other goods which serve a similar purpose. Bitcoin has many comparative advantages to other monetary goods. In particular, it allows the transfer of value to anyone, anywhere in the world, near instantaneously, with low transaction fees, without the need for a trusted intermediary such as a bank. This has literally never been possible before in the entire history of civilization.

- It's true that bitcoin is not currently a unit of account. This mostly has to do with the fact that it's still nascent and needs to increase in liquidity. As it does more and more entrepreneurs who are primarily accepting bitcoin (it will start with the miners) will begin to calculate profit and loss in bitcoin terms

- It's true bitcoin is used for so-called criminal activities. But so too is the dollar. In fact, the dollar isn't just used for buying illegal drugs, the dollar is used to funnel gigantic sums of tax payer wealth to well connected bankers when their businesses fail. Which is the bigger crime, Nouriel?

- Bitcoin isn't susceptible to hacking - individual bitcoin businesses are susceptible to hacking such as the incredibly incompetent MtGox, which deserved to fail. Blaming Bitcoin for the incompetence of a particular business is like saying the dollar is a failure because Lehman Brothers collapsed. To me that is a much worse "hack" than anything that happened with Gox.

- And no, Bitcoin is NOT a ponzi scheme. Bitcoins are a monetary good whose price fluctuates with demand on the market just like any other monetary good, such as gold.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll just leave this here for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouriel_Roubini You can agree or disagree with his argument, but snidely dismissing him as someone without expertise who mistakenly thinks he is "super duper important" is silly.

"Expert" or not, the arguments he's making here are not only obviously wrong, but also almost certainly uneducated. Judge what somebody says, not who he is.

I agree, you are clearly more intelligent then him! While what you say may or may not be wrong. It's his opinion and regardless of what you think about it. It's hard to call him uneducated.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#44

Might as well post my comment here as well... -- It would be great if economists started coming up with genuine criticism regarding Bitcoin, rather than obviously false statements, misunderstandings that have been corrected a million times before, and fallacious reasoning. I mean, virtually everything he said is explicitly listed on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths – that’s how often these things have been brought up…

I looked at the wiki page and I don't see anything that addresses these points (I'm omitting points that seem to be covered): - Bitcoin is not a unit of account as no price of goods and services is set in Bitcoin unit nor it ever will. - Bitcoin isn’t means of payment as few transactions in Bitcoin. And given its volatility all who accept it convert it right back into $/€/¥ - Bitcoin isn’t a store of value as little…

Odd. I certainly recall these points being covered there (or somewhere on the wiki, anyway), but the closest I can find now is a passing remark in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Shopkeepers_can.27t_serious... ...

In absence of an accurate description on the wiki, here goes:

"- Bitcoin is not a unit of account as no price of goods and services is set in Bitcoin unit nor it ever will."

When Bitcoin first started out, virtually everything sold for it was denominated in BTC. Some places still do this, but due to the volatility of Bitcoin right now (which is really just a result of a small market gaining traction, and is unavoidable for a new non-government-backed currency) it is more practical to denominate in USD - either visibly or behind-the-scenes.

This was not the case when Bitcoin started out, and will almost certainly not be the case in the future - as the transactional market for Bitcoin continues growing, it will eventually stabilize in terms of value, and things will be widely priced directly in BTC again. See also next answer.

"- Bitcoin isn’t means of payment as few transactions in Bitcoin. And given its volatility all who accept it convert it right back into $/€/¥"

No requirement exists that a means of payment must exceed a certain arbitrary transaction volume, so that argument is invalid right off the bat. Whether it's a common means of payment has nothing to do with whether it's a means of payment at all.

BTC are currently commonly exchanged back into other currencies after receipt - and again, the claim is false, it is definitely not "all" - to cope with the aforementioned volatility of a "young currency" BitPay, Coinbase etc. serve as "stabilizers" - they allow for adoption to increase during a volatile period, thereby solving the chicken-egg problem of volatility and adoption; over time volatility will decrease (as it has already been doing) as the adoption grows.

TL;DR direct-exchange services such as Coinbase and BitPay are really just temporary coping mechanisms that are absolutely necessary for Bitcoin to grow through its first adoption period.

"- Bitcoin isn’t a store of value as little wealth is in Bitcoin and no assets in it"

"Young currency" applies, again. And again, whether it is a reliable store of value right now, has nothing to do with whether it's a store of value at all.

If I had to summarize the arguments made, these are the big mistakes that are being made:

- "It's not a reliable/useful $concept, so it's not a $concept at all." (obviously incorrect; unable to separate opinion and definition)

- "Very few people use it, so it's useless" (self-fulfilling prophecy, basically, and classic social adoption issue)

- "People don't denominate things in BTC, so BTC is not a currency" (irrelevant, that is not what the definition of "currency" is)

- "The news said that it got hacked / is only used by criminals, so surely that is true" (appeal to... not even sure what to call it, authority? biased source?)

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#45
He says "It is btw a Ponzi game and a conduit for criminal/illegal activities"

Bitcoin's first "killer app" was clearly silk road which was doing ~$40m/yr (1) and the criminal economy for drugs alone is in excess of $320 billion (2).

If you were to model a future where BC's primary use is for criminal/illegal activities I wonder what the value would look like?

Of course providing the allowance that the Overstock's / pubs / merchants continue to provide the smokescreen to allow BC's to be socially / regulatory acceptable.

(1) http://www.dailydot.com/business/silk-road-monthly-sales-bla...

(2) https://www.unodc.org/toc/en/crimes/organized-crime.html

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#46
post #35

at times like this i wish the supporters of bitcoin hadn't wedded themselves so thoroughly to libertarian ideology. they've turned this into a ideological debate when in fact it should just be treated like a cool new technology that could benefit everyone. i say this as someone who thinks bitcoin has the power to change the world but also believes that markets need regulation in order to prevent massive destruction d…

>that said roubini is completely wrong about btc, just like krugman, and both need to change their thinking about what constitutes a currency.

Care to explain why, or is this just your self-affirmation mantra?

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#47
post #26

Roubini isn't laying out the full argument. Bitcoin has low value as a means of exchange currently , but that may change in the future. If speculators are correct that it may go up in the future, it is in their best interest to bid the price up now and collect money in the future. That would make BTC not a speculative bubble, but merely an asset that speculators have properly valued. If you want to argue BTC is or is…

who cares about your fancy pants arguments when it doesn't even pass the smell test? It has a lot of strikes against it: 1) deflationary 2) slow 3) energy hungry

worse is better.

Also, has anyone done a energy use per transaction comparison to other payment networks? I'd be surprised if bitcoin was really that bad in comparison to Visa or Paypal if you included all the energy costs that go into security enforcement.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#48
post #4

TL;DR: Man spends 5 minutes thinking about Bitcoin on a plane and comes to conclusions which may or may not be correct. Shares them with people because he is super duper important.

Perhaps I could ask you a simple question, then. How would you value a Bitcoin?. I am not looking for a precise answer, but a rough range of what it should be worth. It should be possible to do this for any financial asset.

How do you value a network able to send 'value' across the globe immediately. What does PayPal and Visa value their networks at? I imagine it is a good chunk of change.

Now, to further complicate things, you have to put a value on that piece of that puzzle that actually changes hands during these transactions. Realistically, the value of it doesn't even matter if I want to go CAD -> BTC -> BTC -> USD. As long as the value between CAD and USD makes sense, the transaction was a success and all parties are happy.

This is what most people, generally the investment folk, don't understand about our new little technology here. Bitcoin isn't just about the value of a Bitcoin and a Bitcoins buying power. Bitcoin is a network. The value of the fuel for that network will very as people need it and as the cost associated with generating that fuel change. This is irrelevant though as the price of Bitcoin is not the measure of its usefulness, or its success.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#49
Bitcoin is almost exactly the opposite of a ponzi scheme:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from existing capital or new capital paid by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation. Operators of Ponzi schemes usually entice new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent."

There is no controlling operator paying out investors and there is no claim that a bit coin is going to generate any sort of profits in the form of interest or capital appreciation. The short term returns have been unusually inconsistent.

You can say that bitcoin is in a bubble, you can criticize it as a currency, you can criticize its social goals, you can criticize its technical implementation, but to call it a ponzi scheme is blatantly incorrect.

That Roubini, one of the very few mainstream economists to predict the 2008 collapse, is so imprecise with his language gives some indication of the state of todays economics profession.

Re: Nouriel Roubini: Bitcoin Is a ‘Ponzi Game’

#50
post #15

And in other news, global debt now exceeds $100 Trillion dollars - up 40% over the last 7 years: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-09/global-debt-exceeds... . Which is the bigger Ponzi?

Ponzi's not really the right word for either thing. The huge growth of debt is a sign that inflation has been too low for too long in too many places. As long as the ECB and the Fed treat 2% as scary-high inflation, paying back debt becomes far more difficult. To start solving the debt problem, the central banks should start targetting 4-5% inflation for a decade or so, and allow it to go a little above the target, r…

>In contrast, Bitcoin is a deflationary currency

This is IMHO the strongest argument against Bitcoin and the reason why a long-term economy could not depend on it. The problem with cryptocurrencies is the impossibility to control the monetary mass.

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