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'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

theguardian.com

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Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#51

Post by Nursie »

UK-AL wrote: post #11

The problem with this, is that when he enters the workforce a lot of that social awkwardness and bulling problems could come back again. So it's a short lived victory. In the UK outside of silicon roundabout and a few good companies, programmers are low rung employees and often pushed around and managed by the same sort of people who bullied him school. He won't have any authority to hit back, and if he tried probabl…

I've worked in the UK tech industry for 12 years. Never seen what you describe. Never been treated as low-status either, and I've never worked for the old street crowd.

I'm not sayin your experiences are wrong, but they might be less universal than you think.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#52

Post by Nursie »

UK-AL wrote: post #25
DanBC wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person being bullied keeps a log of what happens. They then go to HR (or whatever the proceedure is -and companies need to have a proceedure) to talk about it. They present a copy of their ongoing log and ask for help. If the person has seen a doctor they can ask that doctor to write a supporting letter. Being a member of a union is helpful here because they will help. Taking legal action is an absolute last reso…

Most technology companies in the UK are small(1-20). They don't have HR, and don't really have 'grievance procedures' even though they should. So often bullying is straight from the owners/directors. If you went to a small digital agency, and said you wished file a grievance you would be laughed at. Programmers aren't unionised.

Most tech companies may be that small, but most tech jobs are not with companies that small.

Either way, if you are bullied out of work we have a robust system of tribunals and workers rights over here. You don't need to be a union member to have rights and you shouldn't be scared of exercising them.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#53

Post by Blahah »

DanBC wrote: post #47
Blahah wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to HR requires there to be an HR department. In general the ability to do something about bullying in a company or institution depends on there being the management and adminstrative structure to formalise complaints without them going through the bully. I've seen people leave places, especially in the UK civil service, because the bully controlled the access to reporting them.

But those people then have the option to use constructive dismissal reasons at tribunal. I'm not saying that it's easy, but English employees at least have some protections.

Yeah, there are protections, but like all legal protections they are really only technically there. Practically, taking that course requires sinking a huge amount of time, effort and possibly money into it, and the outcome is not certain. Most people will quit and try another job.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#54

Post by bananas »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #49
bananas wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullying is rife in the UK tech industry. If you put up a wall people will respect it and keep away but if you don't, it's open season. There's also a nasty class divide between permanent and contract staff. I'm the latter and much resentment is felt even though the former could be the latter with a little effort and reap the benefits.

As a 35-year old Brit who has spent his entire career in the UK tech industry, I do not recognise what you describe. However, there are many "tech industries" and so I can't tell you if the culture in the Java, C++/C#, Windows or Banking etc. industries is like that, because in the Internet, Startup, Ruby/Python type industries it absolutely 100% is not. Animosity between permanent and contract staff is something I'v…

I'm in finance sector (mainly insurance) for reference on the J2EE/C# side of things.

I think a number of people have been burned by bad contractors in the city. There are tonnes of them from experience who cruise around with absolutely no reputation.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#55

Post by Nursie »

bananas wrote: post #54
PaulRobinson wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 35-year old Brit who has spent his entire career in the UK tech industry, I do not recognise what you describe. However, there are many "tech industries" and so I can't tell you if the culture in the Java, C++/C#, Windows or Banking etc. industries is like that, because in the Internet, Startup, Ruby/Python type industries it absolutely 100% is not. Animosity between permanent and contract staff is something I'v…

I'm in finance sector (mainly insurance) for reference on the J2EE/C# side of things. I think a number of people have been burned by bad contractors in the city. There are tonnes of them from experience who cruise around with absolutely no reputation.

I'm a contractor in the city but not in finance. If I had to guess I'd say you get bad contractors there because the money on offer is huge, so it will attract people who have no idea what they're doing but are great at blagging.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#56

Post by Twirrim »

Yet somehow, when you get into the tech industry, you discover the bullying, derision and such like are all there. In the community you'd like to call home.

If you're not doing it in Ruby/Clojure/Java/Python/Javascript/Erlang on AWS/OpenStack/Dedicated/iPhone/Android etc. you're an idiot and deserve derision at best.

What that says about the human psyche is more than a little depressing. We should be better than this.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#57

Post by UK-AL »

walshemj wrote: post #43
UK-AL wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most technology companies in the UK are small(1-20). They don't have HR, and don't really have 'grievance procedures' even though they should. So often bullying is straight from the owners/directors. If you went to a small digital agency, and said you wished file a grievance you would be laughed at. Programmers aren't unionised.

In the UK not having a grievance procedure is an automatic fail at the industrial tribunal.

It's not automatic, its a reduction or increase in compensation. You still need to prove the thing. And that takes time & money.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#58

Post by skwirl »

mayanksinghal wrote: post #20
yetanotherphd wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately bullying by its nature is not a very popular political issue. Conservatives (somewhat correctly) consider bullying to be part of how society maintains is social structure. Progressives only consider bullying through the lens of oppressed groups , not individuals who are targeted for their perceived/actual difference or weakness. They don't identify with individual rights and self-defense as these are se…

> how society maintains is social structure I grew up in India. My schools had no bullying at all. And we still had a (much weaker) social structure, the popular ones, the slightly-dangerous ones (those I would avoid hanging out with) and the not-so-popular ones (like those who would spend time on a computer instead of meeting up for sports). Bullying is not universal. Neither is it necessary.

According to a Microsoft survey, India is the third worst country in the world for online bullying[1]. The same survey showed that 54% of Indian students report being bullied offline, and 50% report having bullied someone offline. I think you are quite mistaken in your assessment of your schools.

Studies have shown bullying to be universal among not only humans, but all primates and many social mammals[2] (such as rats and dolphins). Among human societies, bullying is present across the board, from hunter gatherer groups through post industrial societies.

That isn't to say that it can't or shouldn't be dealt with, but you are dead wrong when you say it isn't universal.

[1] http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd...

[2] http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2011/12/15/th...

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#59

Post by walshemj »

UK-AL wrote: post #57
walshemj wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK not having a grievance procedure is an automatic fail at the industrial tribunal.

It's not automatic, its a reduction or increase in compensation. You still need to prove the thing. And that takes time & money.

Nope if the employer screws up badly by not having a grievance/discipline procedure its automatically unfair.

An employer can lose an IT for this reason even if the employee has done naughty stuff.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#60

Post by james1071 »

There are some interesting comments here. My take on the story, as someone who went to a UK comprehensive school in the late '70s early '80s, is that bright people have always been a target at such schools for bullying and current teachers are less able to control the disruptive elements than in the past.

Indeed, there is apparently a tendency to treat them as having medical issues rather than punishing them.

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