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'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

theguardian.com

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Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#41

Post by Blahah »

DanBC wrote: post #23
UK-AL wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part is proving it(Bullying is subtle). The next hard part is stumping up the courage to take legal action.

The person being bullied keeps a log of what happens. They then go to HR (or whatever the proceedure is -and companies need to have a proceedure) to talk about it. They present a copy of their ongoing log and ask for help. If the person has seen a doctor they can ask that doctor to write a supporting letter. Being a member of a union is helpful here because they will help. Taking legal action is an absolute last reso…

Going to HR requires there to be an HR department. In general the ability to do something about bullying in a company or institution depends on there being the management and adminstrative structure to formalise complaints without them going through the bully. I've seen people leave places, especially in the UK civil service, because the bully controlled the access to reporting them.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#42

Post by biafra »

UK-AL wrote: post #24
motters wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been a programmer in tech companies in the UK for a long time I agree about the low status, but I've only rarely encountered bad behavior by managers (mistakes and bad decisions, yes. Bullying not so much). My experience is that in this sort of job the pay is at least liveable and the working conditions are typically good. This is however entirely anecdotal and it's quite possible that I just got lucky and am…

But it depends on the type person you are. If you have aspergers its very easy to become a victim of bullying.

Why? And what kind of bullying would that be?

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#43

Post by walshemj »

UK-AL wrote: post #25
DanBC wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person being bullied keeps a log of what happens. They then go to HR (or whatever the proceedure is -and companies need to have a proceedure) to talk about it. They present a copy of their ongoing log and ask for help. If the person has seen a doctor they can ask that doctor to write a supporting letter. Being a member of a union is helpful here because they will help. Taking legal action is an absolute last reso…

Most technology companies in the UK are small(1-20). They don't have HR, and don't really have 'grievance procedures' even though they should. So often bullying is straight from the owners/directors. If you went to a small digital agency, and said you wished file a grievance you would be laughed at. Programmers aren't unionised.

In the UK not having a grievance procedure is an automatic fail at the industrial tribunal.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#44

Post by walshemj »

dasil003 wrote: post #35
gargarplex wrote: post #8

Is it sad that I saw this post and immediately thought, "Well, that doesn't reflect well on programmers..", thinking that our status as a group is already quite low. * Speaking as someone who has experienced quite a fair share of bullying, such that it makes me trepidatious in most social situations, waiting and ever expecting the first arrow. ^ probably a self-fulfilling prophecy, which turns it into "my fault". if…

> Is it sad that I saw this post and immediately thought, "Well, that doesn't reflect well on programmers..", thinking that our status as a group is already quite low. Hm, I never thought of programmer status as being that low, although as an American living in London I definitely noticed that it is lower here than in the States (especially Silicon Valley obviously). But generally programmers can bring tangible value…

And non techies seem surprised when some of us react so aggressively to the trustifariajn bus protestors those are the kids that bullied is at school.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#45

Post by Dewie »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #28
gargarplex wrote: post #8

Is it sad that I saw this post and immediately thought, "Well, that doesn't reflect well on programmers..", thinking that our status as a group is already quite low. * Speaking as someone who has experienced quite a fair share of bullying, such that it makes me trepidatious in most social situations, waiting and ever expecting the first arrow. ^ probably a self-fulfilling prophecy, which turns it into "my fault". if…

One word: therapy. It's your baggage. Either you own up to it and continually work on it, or you let it fester and run your life. I meet so many people who are terrified of being the type of person that goes to therapy despite significant issues. And it's sad, that's pride and potentially narcissism running your life.

Why is therapy necessarily the only, or the best solution?

Maybe therapy has an undeserved reputation. Maybe people who should og to it but don't are just prideful. But maybe conventional therapy just isn't the best way for people to deal with their problems? Maybe therapy, as a field, just hasn't lived up to its aspirations?

I'd agree that the GP has to do something about it. But I'm not sure about what, specifically.

> And it's sad, that's pride and potentially narcissism running your life.

And that looks like a lack of empathy and/or projection. You can't reduce people's motivations to a small, neat set of emotions and/or intentions.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#47

Post by DanBC »

Blahah wrote: post #41
DanBC wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person being bullied keeps a log of what happens. They then go to HR (or whatever the proceedure is -and companies need to have a proceedure) to talk about it. They present a copy of their ongoing log and ask for help. If the person has seen a doctor they can ask that doctor to write a supporting letter. Being a member of a union is helpful here because they will help. Taking legal action is an absolute last reso…

Going to HR requires there to be an HR department. In general the ability to do something about bullying in a company or institution depends on there being the management and adminstrative structure to formalise complaints without them going through the bully. I've seen people leave places, especially in the UK civil service, because the bully controlled the access to reporting them.

But those people then have the option to use constructive dismissal reasons at tribunal.

I'm not saying that it's easy, but English employees at least have some protections.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#48

Post by crankpot »

tinco wrote: post #31
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #30

Been there, had it nowhere near as bad as Dan did. Institutions don't look out for you. They only look out for themselves. My future children will be taught to stand up for themselves, and enrolled in martial arts if necessary. Additionally, I have no qualms about creatively getting the attention of oblivious institutions that tacitly endorse this abuse. On second thought, maybe I should just homeschool until high sc…

Don't do that, you can't just assume your kids are going to be bullied. I wasn't bullied on primary school, and primary school was one of the safest and happiest periods of my life, I still have some friends from primary school even. There's a good chance your kid is one of the 80% of children that isn't picked on. Even better: your kid might be one of the bullies, then you get the chance to really set things right.…

I'm homeschooled and I'm not fragile. I know a lot of men and women who were homeschooled and they aren't fragile either. Being frequently bullied may be one way to learn about life, but it isn't the only way. In fact I don't think it's even the best way.

> What's to prepare them for that when they're homeschooled?

Life. The homeschoolers I know do tons of things that help them explore life. There are too many to list here, but here's a short list of excellent things homeschoolers do that incidentally help them learn about life: dancing (contra, waltz, swing, etc.); running your own lawn care company; babysitting special needs children; babysitting in general; mission trips to foreign countries; film-making (for fun, commercials, competitions, etc.); learning to fly airplanes; regional equivalents of boy scouts (4H, boy scouts, something else that I can't remember the name of); and much more.

Edit: added word "frequently"

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#49

Post by PaulRobinson »

bananas wrote: post #29
motters wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been a programmer in tech companies in the UK for a long time I agree about the low status, but I've only rarely encountered bad behavior by managers (mistakes and bad decisions, yes. Bullying not so much). My experience is that in this sort of job the pay is at least liveable and the working conditions are typically good. This is however entirely anecdotal and it's quite possible that I just got lucky and am…

Bullying is rife in the UK tech industry. If you put up a wall people will respect it and keep away but if you don't, it's open season. There's also a nasty class divide between permanent and contract staff. I'm the latter and much resentment is felt even though the former could be the latter with a little effort and reap the benefits.

As a 35-year old Brit who has spent his entire career in the UK tech industry, I do not recognise what you describe.

However, there are many "tech industries" and so I can't tell you if the culture in the Java, C++/C#, Windows or Banking etc. industries is like that, because in the Internet, Startup, Ruby/Python type industries it absolutely 100% is not.

Animosity between permanent and contract staff is something I've never witnessed either. Contractors who aren't worth their money? Sure they're going to get a hard time, but if I'm working with a contractor who has 20 years experience on me, sure, I'm expecting them to earn good money. I always saw them as an inspiration, nothing else. I know my colleagues have too.

So, whatever sector you're in, and whatever employer you're with, get out and look elsewhere: it's not like that in many, many, many other parts of the industry.

Re: 'I was bullied and beaten every day. Programming saved my life'

#50

Post by PaulRobinson »

I got into programming in my first year of secondary school (year 7 in modern money), when I wasn't really fitting in well. I was getting bullied a little but had a thick skin so didn't care. Can't deny I relate to the escapist aspects of this though.

That said, this article is... odd. Programmers in the UK have a reputation of being anti-social, awkward and unable to integrate - think The IT Crowd - and this article is hardly going to turn that around, is it?

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