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Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

dish.andrewsullivan.com

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Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#41

Post by fragsworth »

suprgeek wrote: post #19

So the CIA Illegally Spied on the Congress Staffers investigating illegal CIA Torture Methods? ------illegality recursion too deep----------- But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. These agencies shouldn't be allowed to pull this kind of Shit without suffering serious consequences. Time for the Executive to step-up, fire a bunch of high-rankers and NOT sweep this under the carpet as some sort of "Bad…

> But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama.

A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. He can't even get rid of Guantanamo, which was central to his campaign. His response to the Snowden leaks was entirely supportive of the intelligence community, against the general public's perception of what happened. A political figure like him supporting Snowden would have made a massive difference in the public's perception of the events that took place, but he had to side with the NSA.

You're absolutely wrong if you think he has even the slightest bit of control over the CIA. The executive agencies that are supposed to be directed by the president are probably much more directing the president than the other way around.

Maybe you consider it to be conspiratard nonsense, but there's a bit of history behind what happens to presidents who are at odds with the intelligence community.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#42

Post by [deleted] »

sentientmachine wrote: post #36

How far does a government agency have to go in breaking law before the military is deployed to put boots on the ground to reel in the agency back under the rule of law? I'd like to think that if agencies started hiring their own armies and created their own version of law enforcement zones from other countries, and started killing people who opposed them, that someone would actually do something to stop that... right…

[deleted]

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#43

Post by hueving »

fragsworth wrote: post #41
suprgeek wrote: post #19

So the CIA Illegally Spied on the Congress Staffers investigating illegal CIA Torture Methods? ------illegality recursion too deep----------- But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. These agencies shouldn't be allowed to pull this kind of Shit without suffering serious consequences. Time for the Executive to step-up, fire a bunch of high-rankers and NOT sweep this under the carpet as some sort of "Bad…

> But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. He can't even get rid of Guantanamo, which was central to his campaign. His response to the Snowden leaks was entirely supportive of the intelligence community, against the general public's perception of what happened. A political figure like him supporting Snowden would have made a massive…

So is the summary of your message that it's acceptable for the President to just give in to pressure from his subordinates? He is either incompetent or complacent, whichever you position you align with doesn't change the end result for the country.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#44

Post by pirateking »

spiritplumber wrote: post #28
yeukhon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think firing is going to do much though it is a good start. It's the law that needs change. In fact, in Edgar Hoover's FBI era, spying on the entire government was a norm. Presidents were afraid of Hoover. Before we end up with a second Edgar, or a second McCarthy Red Scare, yeah, I think we should step up and make a firm change. But I am hopeless. Election is coming up and everyone is too busy on every other…

OK, but there is a problem upstream of that -- the CIA has NO jurisdiction inside the US. They are a foreign intelligence operation. Myself, I'd propose a battle royale between the CIA and NSA. Do a giant wargame, see which can pwn the other faster/better. Two agencies enter, one leaves. The surviving agency is then split into foreign and domestic branches, with a sane level of cooperation.

Would pay anything to see live streams of that game.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#45

Post by fragsworth »

hueving wrote: post #43
fragsworth wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. He can't even get rid of Guantanamo, which was central to his campaign. His response to the Snowden leaks was entirely supportive of the intelligence community, against the general public's perception of what happened. A political figure like him supporting Snowden would have made a massive…

So is the summary of your message that it's acceptable for the President to just give in to pressure from his subordinates? He is either incompetent or complacent, whichever you position you align with doesn't change the end result for the country.

Don't put words in my mouth - I didn't say it was acceptable! It's fucking terrifying.

And it's also very difficult to say whether the reason is that the President is incompetent, complacent, inherently aligned with the intelligence community, or threatened by the intelligence community, or a combination of any of these things.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#47

Post by protomyth »

sentientmachine wrote: post #36

How far does a government agency have to go in breaking law before the military is deployed to put boots on the ground to reel in the agency back under the rule of law? I'd like to think that if agencies started hiring their own armies and created their own version of law enforcement zones from other countries, and started killing people who opposed them, that someone would actually do something to stop that... right…

It would be the FBI, as the military cannot be used for internal policing functions.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#48

Post by jtfrench »

fragsworth wrote: post #41
suprgeek wrote: post #19

So the CIA Illegally Spied on the Congress Staffers investigating illegal CIA Torture Methods? ------illegality recursion too deep----------- But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. These agencies shouldn't be allowed to pull this kind of Shit without suffering serious consequences. Time for the Executive to step-up, fire a bunch of high-rankers and NOT sweep this under the carpet as some sort of "Bad…

> But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. He can't even get rid of Guantanamo, which was central to his campaign. His response to the Snowden leaks was entirely supportive of the intelligence community, against the general public's perception of what happened. A political figure like him supporting Snowden would have made a massive…

>> A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it.

If this is indeed true, then it would mean that the US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) is corrupt from the core and the idea of checks & balances is completely bogus.

If this is case, and if we as (Americans? people?) tolerate it, then I guess it's our implicit way of saying "corruption is indeed the best way — it keeps everyone happy" (pan e circo).

If we don't tolerate it and change it somehow, then maybe our particular multiverse trajectory goes another direction.

Who knows if Obama is actually the one to do this. I'm not expecting much of anything from him, no more/less than I do of any other past President. I have no clue what it's like to be POTUS, but I assume it's like inheriting the CEO/President role at a super old, well-known established company, with an even older and power-hungry Board. Sure, they'll let you be the CEO, but they hold all the political "preferred stock" and can make sure the CEO is ousted if he doesn't do what they want.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#49

Post by thaumasiotes »

jtfrench wrote: post #48
fragsworth wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. He can't even get rid of Guantanamo, which was central to his campaign. His response to the Snowden leaks was entirely supportive of the intelligence community, against the general public's perception of what happened. A political figure like him supporting Snowden would have made a massive…

>> A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. If this is indeed true, then it would mean that the US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) is corrupt from the core and the idea of checks & balances is completely bogus. If this is case, and if we as (Americans? people?) tolerate it, then I guess it's our implicit way of saying "corruption is indeed…

>> A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it.

> If this is indeed true, then it would mean that the US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) is corrupt from the core and the idea of checks & balances is completely bogus.

Ever since someone asked me if I thought GWB was "a good president", I've been mildly interested in what the president is (a) supposed to do, and (b) empowered to do. It turns out both questions are quite difficult to answer, and in particular the answer to (b), as best as I've been able to tell, is "almost nothing". At this point, I'm a little confused as to why the position is so prestigious.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#50

Post by whatevsbro »

suprgeek wrote: post #19

So the CIA Illegally Spied on the Congress Staffers investigating illegal CIA Torture Methods? ------illegality recursion too deep----------- But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. These agencies shouldn't be allowed to pull this kind of Shit without suffering serious consequences. Time for the Executive to step-up, fire a bunch of high-rankers and NOT sweep this under the carpet as some sort of "Bad…

> Otherwise all that Hope & Change sloganeering will be empty rhetoric.

But not yet? We've seen the full first term, and the destruction of the nation's economy and everyone's civil liberties, but umm.. we can't tell if the Hope & Change sloganeering was just empty rhetoric or not?

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