A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry • Hacker News Board

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#121

Post by trhway » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:29 PM UTC

evan_ wrote: post #3

Terrifying startup prospect: Imagine a small dashcam-like consumer device that was able to perform the same type of license plate recognition coupled with GPS location. A data collection company could provide these devices for free or at a low cost to anyone, and then pay drivers for every license plate scan their box sends in. Obvious downfall: someone will figure out how to spoof a GPS signal and randomly generate…

>Terrifying startup prospect: Imagine a small dashcam-like consumer device that was able to perform the same type of license plate recognition coupled with GPS location.

your car already has GPS, "parking" cam and Wi-Fi/Bluetooth (for engine computer at least, not necessarily that you know about it). You're just not being paid for the info your car collects.

>Obvious downfall: someone will figure out how to spoof a GPS signal and randomly generate license plate images on a computer monitor and make a bunch of money for uploading junk data.

cross-referencing with streams from other cams will immediately identify "low trust" streams.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#122

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:33 PM UTC

dntrkv wrote: post #100

PeterisP wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the_ancient - under that logic, I should be allowed to record what I hear, and if I catch you ever lying to me or breaking your verbal promises, you won't be able to deny that.

Go for it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. It's just people will think you're a weirdo for doing it.

I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I understand in USA it would be a crime in about half of states.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#123

Post by Crito » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:34 PM UTC

protocow wrote: post #64

berberous wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations. If all you do is scan a plate and display "car payments past due", or discard the scan if the car is not wanted, it's not all that different from a human looking for a car. But these folks…

The repo companies here are journalists. They are collecting and reporting to their customers truthful facts. This does invade privacy, but so does TMZ.

TMZ could not get away with doing to non-public figures what they do to celebrities.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#124

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:39 PM UTC

graylights wrote: post #110

PeterisP wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm walking on a public street, then that isn't private information - unlike medical information that's entrusted to some specific people bound by restrictions, what happens on the street is public data. And I'm perfectly allowed to say "hey, you know what? Yesterday I saw Belorn walking down that street!" no matter if you want to hide that - it's not dissemination of private and sensitive information.

I agree public street is public info. But it sounds like they're scanning more then public street. At what point does it become private? 1. Parked on a public street in front of my home 2. Parked on private parking lot at my apartment 3. Parked in my driveway 4. Parked in my garage with door open. 5. Parked in my garage but visible through window if you angle the camera just right.

I believe that question has been asked many times in courts and is settled long ago. Your examples 1.-4. would be treated as "in plain view" (if seen from standing on that public street) and 5. wouldn't.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#125

Post by __david__ » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:41 PM UTC

berberous wrote: post #21

r0h1n wrote: post #6

I'm curious - how exactly would one refute the following argument put forth by data brokers and repo agents? > But Digital Recognition and other so-called “data brokers” who collect plate scans are fighting Hecht’s bill, arguing that repo agents are not invading privacy when they scan a license plate, which is available for all to see. The data brokers do not disclose the owner of the plates, they point out, though…

The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations. If all you do is scan a plate and display "car payments past due", or discard the scan if the car is not wanted, it's not all that different from a human looking for a car. But these folks…

> The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations.

I've had this idea in my mind to build the exact same thing, but have it be crowdsourced data and available to everyone for free. Wouldn't you like to know where police cars spend most of their time? Wouldn't you like to see where your mayor's car is at 3am? If private corporations and the government get the data, I should get the data, too.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#126

Post by trhway » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:41 PM UTC

the privacy as we know it has been obsoleted by technology, just like many other things in the past and will be in the future.

Instead of trying to save terminally ill patient - privacy - we need to look into the future. The real fight is who owns the data, not whether the data is collected. For example can we just force that all the data anybody has about anybody is to be public?

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#127

Post by Crito » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:41 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

finnh wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you own curtains?

Yes, I do, but I don't find them relevant here. Suing you for breaching my privacy is completely independent from the fact that if you caught me lying to you by peeking through the curtains, I'd only have myself to blame.

Spoken like somebody in a privileged position of not having anything that they believe must remain hidden.

Me spying on you while you are in your home would be illegal, because you deserve some baseline privacy. Me tracking you around town should similarly be illegal.

You "blaming yourself" if I illegally violate your privacy is nothing but senseless and shameless victim blaming.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#128

Post by me_again » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:42 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #112

deeths wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law has thousands of examples of quantity turning permitted things into forbidden ones (or at least regulated ones, which is probably more the case here). This is in no way a unique restriction. For example: 1) If someone glances in your window as they walk by your house, that's fine. If they stand there all day, they're probably guilty of stalking, a crime. 2) If one person is holding a protest sign in front of…

Okay, this is a very valid point that laws can and make a distinction based on quantity. However, in this point no such distinction has been made, and thus they should be treated equally. There is clear law on the "low quantity" case, and no distinct law on the "high quantity" case - so the same principles should be applied even for thousandfold or millionfold increases unless/until the lawmakers (not the courts) dra…

This article is specifically about a lawmaker trying to draw a line, and the lobbying around that process. At least as far as this article goes, no court case is underway, nor is there a claim that this is currently illegal.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#129

Post by Crito » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:43 PM UTC

sudomal wrote: post #17

iamsalman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to think of it -- humans can't memorize all the number plates they see. Machines can. It's the "recording" of these images (though there for everyone to see) which takes us into the gray area.

I'm imagining a future where most cameras have Street View style blurring in their hardware. Where vintage digital cameras are sought after and illicit manufacturers produce unauthorised copies with the feature disabled.

I have a picture of my cars license plate in my phone for convenient access. Furthermore, if I am ever in a fender bender I want to have the ability to photograph everything, with license plates unblurred.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#130

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 7:53 PM UTC

arca_vorago wrote: post #59

walid wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I'm very much miffed by the excessive surveillance of every country these days I don't find this to be the same. Companies and organizations do have the right to check up on people's activities in some manner. If your car wasn't paid for and it belongs to the bank now, I think the bank has the right to know where it is to repossess it. I think this is one of the ugly truths of reality rather than a matter of…

"Companies and organizations do have the right to check up on people's activities in some manner. If your car wasn't paid for and it belongs to the bank now, I think the bank has the right to know where it is to repossess it." What you are referring to is part of the agreement you make with the lender in which you agree to keep them updated on changes of address, a violation of which they have constitutionally legal…

Ignoring the legal issues, I believe we have to come back to the old analogy of Global Village that illustrates the coming reality.

Imagine living in a village a hundred years ago. There is no practical anonymity, everybody knows who you are, what you do, and they tend to share many parts of what they know. The shopkeeper knows all your purchasing habits, the bored old lady living on the corner knows where everybody is going at what times, and if you buy condoms then the pharmacist likely knows with whom you'll be using them. If you'd get judged by a jury of your peers, they would know you and the witnesses since birth, and take all of it into account.

Like it or not, I feel that this is the social model that our changing capabilities will bring - and it's not entirely a disaster; for pretty much all time the civilization was like this, the anonymous faceless metropolis is just a recent change; and USA constitution was already written for an environment like that, and not the current (temporary?) one.