A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry • Hacker News Board

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#91

Post by Shivetya » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 5:31 PM UTC

I am simply against any law that would prohibit the public from this type of information and restrict it to only law enforcement.

If its not right for a public company to assemble such records it should be doubly wrong for law enforcement. I tire of passing the police cars festooned with cameras pointing in every direction. What guarantee do we have that the data is any safer in their hands? We don't and the reason is that a law that might offer protection today doesn't have to be in that form tomorrow or after some obscure judge rules otherwise.

So I am all for it on the grounds it puts on equal footing with government officials. We should be able to track them too which is most likely the real reason there is a law coming to prevent gathering by private individuals or companies

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#92

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 5:31 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #27

evan_ wrote: post #3

Terrifying startup prospect: Imagine a small dashcam-like consumer device that was able to perform the same type of license plate recognition coupled with GPS location. A data collection company could provide these devices for free or at a low cost to anyone, and then pay drivers for every license plate scan their box sends in. Obvious downfall: someone will figure out how to spoof a GPS signal and randomly generate…

How about a google glass like device, that we all wear all the time, and the camera runs all the time, and sends face pictures of people with the GPS coordinates and the timestamp? This is all fun to talk about, but none of these is going to end well.

What this would change? That you'd be 100% sure you can't hide on a street instead of only being reasonably sure?

The world is a small place, if you do mischief there's a good chance someone remembered you, and a quite reasonable chance it was somebody you know.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#93

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 5:33 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #75

PeterisP wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how quantity suddenly transforms a permitted thing into a forbidden one. If I don't need your permission to look at your car's licence plate on a public street and write down when and where I saw it, or simply take a photo of said licence plate (as photos currently include timestamp+location) - then the situation doesn't change in any way and I still don't need your permission even if I did the same for a…

Can you understand how individual letters may not be copyrighted, but an arrangement of them into a large text may be?

No, I can't. It's actually a big philosophical/legal issue involving "illegal numbers"[0], definition of copying and colour of bits[1].

Don't make problems simple and obvious when they're not.

[0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

[1] - http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#94

Post by cinquemb » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 5:33 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #74

cinquemb wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still think the killer app for Google Glass type products is face & license-plate recognition, aggregating data and pulling it up for you a la augmented reality all the time. The devices & services would be cheap unto free by companies accumulating that data. I've thought about this a lot (because my startup wants to move into this space in a year or so, depends on the progression of wearables like glass) and hav…

Surveillance carried out by individuals and corporations, even if universally available, doesn't make surveillance by governments any less bad. The printing press was an instrument of giving; surveillance is an instrument of taking.

I didn't say anything about it becoming "less bad", just that the discussions will mostly be purely academic and of little value to the avg person (to them gov surveillance Edit for 1st comment: Looks like 4sq found it… and I'm sure there's room for others to follow… http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/05/foursquare-revenues/

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#95

Post by Wistar » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 5:38 PM UTC

linuxlizard wrote: post #81

I see a potential market for a mechanical device that automatically covers up the license plate when the car is parked & turned off. Pull into parking space in the mall. Cover up your license plate. Or, better yet, put an image of random numbers. Ta da!

It will earn you a ticket in most states, at least on a public street.

I am, and have been, very interested in countermeasures that obscure plates to non-humans. Bright IR to severely overexpose, shuttered lenses or pulsed LEDs that create severe beat-frequency disruption of the image, some magical thing that causes the characteristics of a plate (retro-reflectivity is a key signature, I think) to not look like a plate to an ALRP so that it won't even think to try and capture, etc.

—I mention retro-reflectivity only because within the last few years Washington state has required that license plates be replaced every three years rather than just getting new tabs as it had been forever. I asked a DMV engineer why this policy was put into place and he replied that it was due to decreasing reflectivity over time. Perhaps coincidental but the policy was instituted right about te same time ALRPs started to be used by parking enforcement and police.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#96

Post by 300bps » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 5:39 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #34

mseebach wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Already, mapping technology can cause marital problems No, affairs can cause marital problems. Technology just makes it easier to get caught This is not a vindication of the technology in question, but it can't be blamed for everything. I can't help but think that cheating business travellers had it a lot easier before the advent of ubiquitous, near-free mobile long distance telephony made it easier for spouses to…

I see this as a general trend of misattributing problems to technology that are actually caused by one's own behaviour. Lying to people is a bad idea; some people mistakenly believe that they can lie freely without others knowing, and then cry foul when new technologies threaten that belief. Everything we do, everything we say, has consequences that spread through the great web of causation; technology only allows us…

I see this as a general trend of misattributing problems to technology that are actually caused by one's own behaviour.

I see. So stop doing anything controversial and you'll be just fine, right?

We better tell closeted homosexuals that someone tracking their movements isn't the problem; their behavior is the problem.

How about atheists? They're more disliked in the U.S. than just about any group out there (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/in-atheists-we-dis...). I guess the problem isn't their boss checking via license plate scanning whether or not they go to church every week, their behavior is the problem.

I guess we better tell political dissidents to knock it off too.

And let's not forget abuse of the data. You seem to think that this data is perfectly protected, perfectly monitored. You really can't imagine a scenario where a rogue cop pulls over a young girl, becomes obsessed with her and then begins stalking her by abusing electronic tracking systems he has access to? It's happening already - Google gave me too many examples to cite.

Everything we do, everything we say, has consequences that spread through the great web of causation

This is astoundingly pseudo-intellectual tripe. The reality is that what people do in their own private lives is none of your business, and people seeking to track people's every movements are evil.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#97

Post by mattfenwick » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 5:40 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #62

berberous wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations. If all you do is scan a plate and display "car payments past due", or discard the scan if the car is not wanted, it's not all that different from a human looking for a car. But these folks…

I don't see how quantity suddenly transforms a permitted thing into a forbidden one. If I don't need your permission to look at your car's licence plate on a public street and write down when and where I saw it, or simply take a photo of said licence plate (as photos currently include timestamp+location) - then the situation doesn't change in any way and I still don't need your permission even if I did the same for a…

> the situation doesn't change in any way and I still don't need your permission even if I did the same for a thousand cars this morning, and my buddies did the same thing for ten thousand cars more.

I hate to say it -- because it's probably irrelevant from a legal perspective at the moment -- but this sounds exactly like the fallacy of the beard to me.

(edit: not to accuse you of committing this fallacy, just felt this was important enough that it should be highlighted)

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#98

Post by Wistar » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #61

zacinbusiness wrote: post #2

This is quite interesting. On the one hand, I do understand that autoloans are very easy to default on. So there should be some method for loan companies to get these vehicles back. However, I also think that loan companies should more carefully screen their applicants. Of course, that would mean that loan companies make less money on loans and fees, and that they lose money on reselling cars that are already partial…

Strict screening will make it harder for the poor, who have poor credit, to buy a car. Tracking vehicles will make lenders less paranoid about lending, which will enable less wealthy households to lend. IMO if you're wealthy ( like the vast majority of the readers of HN ) you should be able to opt out of tracking for an additional financing feel whereas the poor should still be able to voluntarily subject themselves…

The "Buy Here Pay Here" car sales lots that sell primarily to low-income folks often install tracking equipment in the vehicles they sell as a part of the deal.

Ken Bensinger's 2011 LA Times series about the practices of Buy-Here-Pay-Here car sales businesses:

"A vicious cycle in the used-car business" http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/30/business/la-fi-buy-h...

Fairly depressing.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#99

Post by belorn » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 6:01 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #65

belorn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not about invading privacy, but rather about illegal handling of private and sensitive information. The information about who is where and when is information that should be treated in similar way as credit cards numbers, medical information, and so on. Repo agents do not actually need to store this for their businesses, so their argument is easy refuted by simply denying their ability to profit by selling sensit…

If I'm walking on a public street, then that isn't private information - unlike medical information that's entrusted to some specific people bound by restrictions, what happens on the street is public data. And I'm perfectly allowed to say "hey, you know what? Yesterday I saw Belorn walking down that street!" no matter if you want to hide that - it's not dissemination of private and sensitive information.

If you feel so, I hope you don't mind if someone like the police create live 24/7 tracking of your position. Any driving, any movement... always tracked.

If don't consider that a intrusion of your privacy, then that is up to you.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#100

Post by dntrkv » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 6:04 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #69

TeMPOraL wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this as a general trend of misattributing problems to technology that are actually caused by one's own behaviour. Lying to people is a bad idea; some people mistakenly believe that they can lie freely without others knowing, and then cry foul when new technologies threaten that belief. Everything we do, everything we say, has consequences that spread through the great web of causation; technology only allows us…

the_ancient - under that logic, I should be allowed to record what I hear, and if I catch you ever lying to me or breaking your verbal promises, you won't be able to deny that.

Go for it. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. It's just people will think you're a weirdo for doing it.