A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry • Hacker News Board

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#61

Post by landryraccoon » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:35 PM UTC

zacinbusiness wrote: post #2

This is quite interesting. On the one hand, I do understand that autoloans are very easy to default on. So there should be some method for loan companies to get these vehicles back. However, I also think that loan companies should more carefully screen their applicants. Of course, that would mean that loan companies make less money on loans and fees, and that they lose money on reselling cars that are already partial…

Strict screening will make it harder for the poor, who have poor credit, to buy a car. Tracking vehicles will make lenders less paranoid about lending, which will enable less wealthy households to lend. IMO if you're wealthy ( like the vast majority of the readers of HN ) you should be able to opt out of tracking for an additional financing feel whereas the poor should still be able to voluntarily subject themselves to tracking in exchange for a more favorable rate. Personally I wouldn't care if the bank is tracking my car while it's not paid off, so I'd go for the lower rate anyway.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#62

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:37 PM UTC

berberous wrote: post #21

r0h1n wrote: post #6

I'm curious - how exactly would one refute the following argument put forth by data brokers and repo agents? > But Digital Recognition and other so-called “data brokers” who collect plate scans are fighting Hecht’s bill, arguing that repo agents are not invading privacy when they scan a license plate, which is available for all to see. The data brokers do not disclose the owner of the plates, they point out, though…

The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations. If all you do is scan a plate and display "car payments past due", or discard the scan if the car is not wanted, it's not all that different from a human looking for a car. But these folks…

I don't see how quantity suddenly transforms a permitted thing into a forbidden one.

If I don't need your permission to look at your car's licence plate on a public street and write down when and where I saw it, or simply take a photo of said licence plate (as photos currently include timestamp+location) - then the situation doesn't change in any way and I still don't need your permission even if I did the same for a thousand cars this morning, and my buddies did the same thing for ten thousand cars more.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#63

Post by the_ancient » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:38 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #34

mseebach wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Already, mapping technology can cause marital problems No, affairs can cause marital problems. Technology just makes it easier to get caught This is not a vindication of the technology in question, but it can't be blamed for everything. I can't help but think that cheating business travellers had it a lot easier before the advent of ubiquitous, near-free mobile long distance telephony made it easier for spouses to…

I see this as a general trend of misattributing problems to technology that are actually caused by one's own behaviour. Lying to people is a bad idea; some people mistakenly believe that they can lie freely without others knowing, and then cry foul when new technologies threaten that belief. Everything we do, everything we say, has consequences that spread through the great web of causation; technology only allows us…

under that logic we should all be implanted with a sensor the records audio video of everything we see, say, and hear, as well as providing real time location data.

After all you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide.... right

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#64

Post by protocow » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:42 PM UTC

berberous wrote: post #21

r0h1n wrote: post #6

I'm curious - how exactly would one refute the following argument put forth by data brokers and repo agents? > But Digital Recognition and other so-called “data brokers” who collect plate scans are fighting Hecht’s bill, arguing that repo agents are not invading privacy when they scan a license plate, which is available for all to see. The data brokers do not disclose the owner of the plates, they point out, though…

The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations. If all you do is scan a plate and display "car payments past due", or discard the scan if the car is not wanted, it's not all that different from a human looking for a car. But these folks…

The repo companies here are journalists. They are collecting and reporting to their customers truthful facts. This does invade privacy, but so does TMZ.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#65

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:42 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #43

r0h1n wrote: post #6

I'm curious - how exactly would one refute the following argument put forth by data brokers and repo agents? > But Digital Recognition and other so-called “data brokers” who collect plate scans are fighting Hecht’s bill, arguing that repo agents are not invading privacy when they scan a license plate, which is available for all to see. The data brokers do not disclose the owner of the plates, they point out, though…

Its not about invading privacy, but rather about illegal handling of private and sensitive information. The information about who is where and when is information that should be treated in similar way as credit cards numbers, medical information, and so on. Repo agents do not actually need to store this for their businesses, so their argument is easy refuted by simply denying their ability to profit by selling sensit…

If I'm walking on a public street, then that isn't private information - unlike medical information that's entrusted to some specific people bound by restrictions, what happens on the street is public data. And I'm perfectly allowed to say "hey, you know what? Yesterday I saw Belorn walking down that street!" no matter if you want to hide that - it's not dissemination of private and sensitive information.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#66

Post by HarryHirsch » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:44 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #62

berberous wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations. If all you do is scan a plate and display "car payments past due", or discard the scan if the car is not wanted, it's not all that different from a human looking for a car. But these folks…

I don't see how quantity suddenly transforms a permitted thing into a forbidden one. If I don't need your permission to look at your car's licence plate on a public street and write down when and where I saw it, or simply take a photo of said licence plate (as photos currently include timestamp+location) - then the situation doesn't change in any way and I still don't need your permission even if I did the same for a…

If you can't understand how indexing turns bulk data into information you are clearly beyond help. Hint: there is a whole industry involved in data mining, and since time immemorial what distinguished a library from a pile of books is the library index.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#67

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:45 PM UTC

gnerd wrote: post #47

diydsp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're hinting at another major problem in this area, too: It's not just that ppl have the data and use it for amoral/unfair purposes. It's that people come to trust the data, believe in it and use it to make decisions. This is disastrous b/c there are huge margins of error. Errors are possible at all levels in systems like this, including sabotage and incrimination and your suggestion of junk data. E.g. in the motor…

For the EU, Data Protection Directive 95/46 (and the incoming changes from 2012), attempt to offer protection against automatic decisions. In that document there is the concept of consent and that the consent can only be for the purpose the data was collected for. So should some clever company sell widgets at a loss to collect data and should that data then have an extra purpose in aggregate that does not fall into a…

In the licence plate situation the point would be that this isn't personal data, and thus the data protection directive and the consent requirement doesn't apply.

In the motorcycle example, there is no personal data involved whatsoever - it's just a photo that some motorcycle was there; again, DPD doesn't restrict anything at all for such cases.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#68

Post by zacinbusiness » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:45 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #61

zacinbusiness wrote: post #2

This is quite interesting. On the one hand, I do understand that autoloans are very easy to default on. So there should be some method for loan companies to get these vehicles back. However, I also think that loan companies should more carefully screen their applicants. Of course, that would mean that loan companies make less money on loans and fees, and that they lose money on reselling cars that are already partial…

Strict screening will make it harder for the poor, who have poor credit, to buy a car. Tracking vehicles will make lenders less paranoid about lending, which will enable less wealthy households to lend. IMO if you're wealthy ( like the vast majority of the readers of HN ) you should be able to opt out of tracking for an additional financing feel whereas the poor should still be able to voluntarily subject themselves…

I can see a sort of opt-in thing working. And that would be better than just sending out camera equipped cars to scan all the vehicles. But in the same way that I would agree to a tracking system I would also agree to an automatic debit from my account each month. At least that way there's no location data for the government to subpoena.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#69

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:47 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #34

mseebach wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Already, mapping technology can cause marital problems No, affairs can cause marital problems. Technology just makes it easier to get caught This is not a vindication of the technology in question, but it can't be blamed for everything. I can't help but think that cheating business travellers had it a lot easier before the advent of ubiquitous, near-free mobile long distance telephony made it easier for spouses to…

I see this as a general trend of misattributing problems to technology that are actually caused by one's own behaviour. Lying to people is a bad idea; some people mistakenly believe that they can lie freely without others knowing, and then cry foul when new technologies threaten that belief. Everything we do, everything we say, has consequences that spread through the great web of causation; technology only allows us…

the_ancient - under that logic, I should be allowed to record what I hear, and if I catch you ever lying to me or breaking your verbal promises, you won't be able to deny that.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#70

Post by EGreg » Wed, Mar 05, 2014, 4:47 PM UTC

This information is all public, it is only becoming more searchable and cross referenceable by computers.

Where have we seen that before? Many years ago when facebook first revealed the Newsfeed. There was a huge backlash, to which Mark Z personally wrote to all users, "Relax, breathe, we hear you." He went on to explain that all the info in the newsfeed was already public, just better accessible to us for consumption.

The inexorable march of technology proceeded unabated. The next few years produced the slogan "privacy is dead" on the social networks. So many people now post mundane details of their lives IN ORDER for others to read and to collect "likes".

Fast-forward to last year: Graph Search comes out, to help us all find what we're looking for using only the data available to us, and facebook doing the searching. No big splash this time. The graph search is arguable much more dangerous to privacy than ever:

http://gawker.com/5978327/men-interested-in-men-in-tehran-an...

And the inexorable march of technology continues. Remember - it's not that you're caught on camera in a public place that's scary. It's that later, all the information can be cross referenced and mined for any purpose.

Should I write a blog post about this?