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A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

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Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#21
post #6

I'm curious - how exactly would one refute the following argument put forth by data brokers and repo agents? > But Digital Recognition and other so-called “data brokers” who collect plate scans are fighting Hecht’s bill, arguing that repo agents are not invading privacy when they scan a ­license plate, which is available for all to see. The data brokers do not disclose the owner of the plates, they point out, though…

The scan of the license plan is not really the issue, it's the collecting of the scan, tagging it with GPS, and aggregating the scan into large, permanent databases that can be accessed by both government and private corporations.

If all you do is scan a plate and display "car payments past due", or discard the scan if the car is not wanted, it's not all that different from a human looking for a car.

But these folks are creating historical databases that capture everywhere you have ever been. These sorts of databases can be mined retroactively to discover all sorts of sensitive information, similar to what was pointed out by Justice Sotomayor in the recent GPS tracking case, U.S. v. Jones:

"GPS monitoring generates a precise, comprehensive record of a person's public movements that reflects a wealth of detail about her familial, political, professional, religious, and sexual associations. See, e.g., People v. Weaver, 12 N. Y. 3d 433, 441-442, 909 N. E. 2d 1195, 1199 (2009) ("Disclosed in [GPS] data . . . will be trips the indisputably private nature of which takes little imagination to conjure: trips to the psychiatrist, the plastic surgeon, the abortion clinic, the AIDS treatment center, the strip club, the criminal defense attorney, the by-the-hour motel, the union meeting, the mosque, synagogue or church, the gay bar and on and on"). The Government can store such records and efficiently mine them for information years into the future."

While the government can currently look up your license plate information, or track you manually, they are limited by their resources. (From Alito's opinion in U.S. v. Jones: "But it is almost impossible to think of late- 18th-century situations that are analogous to what took place in this case. Is it possible to imagine a case in which a constable secreted himself somewhere in a coach and remained there for a period of time in order to monitor the movements of the coach's owner?") A nationwide database of historical location information -- that may not currently require a warrant under the 4th amendment to access -- is ripe for abuse. Letting private companies access the data is also scary.

These data brokers are probably right that they don't currently violate any privacy laws, however. But that just means we need to change the laws, as I think this most definitely needs to be a violation of privacy.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#22

Where exactly do they get their scanner tools from? I always thought these were police/3 letter agency only?

I read a half of the article and it doesn't seem to mention where from, but all you need is a camera with image recognition. Number plates are much easier to spot than faces since they are very uniform and flat and would only be translated in an image.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#23
post #6

I'm curious - how exactly would one refute the following argument put forth by data brokers and repo agents? > But Digital Recognition and other so-called “data brokers” who collect plate scans are fighting Hecht’s bill, arguing that repo agents are not invading privacy when they scan a ­license plate, which is available for all to see. The data brokers do not disclose the owner of the plates, they point out, though…

iamsalman offers a great response. Legally (and conceptually) there is the idea of a collection, a compilation being valuable in and on itself: this has been enforced to prevent people from selling phone books and TV programs without paying the original ‘compilers’, phone companies and TV stations, not as operators but original authors of an exhaustive description. Collecting changes useless information into, anecdotes, into a usable product: that’s the whole point of those companies, they (presumably by contract) guarantee a return rate that makes them economically sound; that changes the nature of ‘looking around’.

This idea is essential to all the creep factor around Google’s recurrent controversy: the problem is not taking street pictures, but guaranteeing that any house can be seen by anyone; it's not to murmur in your boss's ear ‘that’s the sub-commissioner in grey’ but potentially matching anyone’s face to their full public history. This is what made every page of a phone book precious, and every post-it with a phone number on it worthless.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#24

Where exactly do they get their scanner tools from? I always thought these were police/3 letter agency only?

I've seen these cars in the Cincinnati area. They're using the same technology (Cameras, at least) that the Law Enforcement folks (Ohio State Highway Patrol) are using, but on a 4 year old Honda Civic versus a Crown Vic/Dodge Charger/Chevy Impala.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#26
post #3

Terrifying startup prospect: Imagine a small dashcam-like consumer device that was able to perform the same type of license plate recognition coupled with GPS location. A data collection company could provide these devices for free or at a low cost to anyone, and then pay drivers for every license plate scan their box sends in. Obvious downfall: someone will figure out how to spoof a GPS signal and randomly generate…

You're hinting at another major problem in this area, too:

It's not just that ppl have the data and use it for amoral/unfair purposes. It's that people come to trust the data, believe in it and use it to make decisions. This is disastrous b/c there are huge margins of error.

Errors are possible at all levels in systems like this, including sabotage and incrimination and your suggestion of junk data.

E.g. in the motorcycle example cited above. It's quite possible a motorcyclist needed to stretch their legs, so they pulled into a driveway for a moment, stretched, then google snapped a photo, then it was used as evidence. It's not likely or common, but it's utterly possible and not anticipated by these systems.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#27
post #3

Terrifying startup prospect: Imagine a small dashcam-like consumer device that was able to perform the same type of license plate recognition coupled with GPS location. A data collection company could provide these devices for free or at a low cost to anyone, and then pay drivers for every license plate scan their box sends in. Obvious downfall: someone will figure out how to spoof a GPS signal and randomly generate…

How about a google glass like device, that we all wear all the time, and the camera runs all the time, and sends face pictures of people with the GPS coordinates and the timestamp?

This is all fun to talk about, but none of these is going to end well.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#28
post #5
post #3

Terrifying startup prospect: Imagine a small dashcam-like consumer device that was able to perform the same type of license plate recognition coupled with GPS location. A data collection company could provide these devices for free or at a low cost to anyone, and then pay drivers for every license plate scan their box sends in. Obvious downfall: someone will figure out how to spoof a GPS signal and randomly generate…

I'd pay good money to track down the aggressive clowns I meet on the highway or those who came close to killing me on a pedestrian crossing. The long arm of ... revenge.

...and someone else would pay good money to a clown to put on a fake license plate cover of their business rival and commit aggressive acts, so vigilantes and a mob would go after them.

We need time-varying crypto license plates. apparently.

Re: A vast hidden surveillance network, powered by the repo industry

#30
post #13

I really, really want to say that I think this technology is a bad idea. But I don't. I don't think that the technology is the problem here, as Digital Recognition said they are not _technically_ invading privacy since the license plates are available for everyone to see. And if you outlaw it, whats stopping a few crooks organizing their own underground data collection and selling the stuff on a black market? Rather,…

> I'd prefer to see a different way of "licensing" cars.

How about an LCD screen that shows a captcha image of the license number? The captcha image can be regenerated after a set interval, for example, a day.

Edit: This would have the benefit that humans can still read it, but making it difficult for OCR.

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