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Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

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Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#71

Post by smsm42 »

gk1 wrote: post #17

See what happened in Ukraine's neighboring country, Moldova, 24 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Transnistria Moldova had a population of ethnic Russians that lived on the Eastern bank of the river D'niest'r. (Similar to the Crimean region in Ukraine.) Eventually a civil war broke out, and Russia stepped in to back the ethnically Russian region (sound familiar?). The end result was a stalemate. A ceasef…

That would actually an optimistic scenario. More pessimistic one would be if you notice Putin got approval to use Russian military in Ukraine, not just in Crimea. Which means he can also use it it Kharkov, Donetsk, Lugansk and other places where there is a majority Russian population. And try to split Ukraine along language-ethnic lines and destroy it as an independent state as a punishment for defying them. Note that any success of new Ukrainian powers spells trouble for Putin, as it means one can defeat the authoritarian rulers and succeed, while the official position is that the authoritarian rule is the only defense against chaos. So Putin would be very invested in causing the said chaos in Ukraine, both as a revenge, as means of control and to support the idea that his rule must be strong - otherwise see what happened to Ukrainians. So just having Crimea separate, as I say, would not be the worst yet.

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#72

Post by stefantalpalaru »

gk1 wrote: post #17

See what happened in Ukraine's neighboring country, Moldova, 24 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Transnistria Moldova had a population of ethnic Russians that lived on the Eastern bank of the river D'niest'r. (Similar to the Crimean region in Ukraine.) Eventually a civil war broke out, and Russia stepped in to back the ethnically Russian region (sound familiar?). The end result was a stalemate. A ceasef…

> different language (Russian, not Moldovan)

The official language of the Republic of Moldova is Romanian[1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Moldova

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#73

Post by gph »

loceng wrote: post #21
danmaz74 wrote: post #3

It looks to me like it was all organized from the start: If using the economic pressure of gas prices wasn't enough to keep Ukraine in the Russian sphere of influence, they were ready to seize Crimea and maybe something more...

It's quite an ancient "war" technique to simply have population over decades or centuries slowly migrate to a region, and then either through voting power or simply creating a new group of who have a common interest or similar values are now in this new region and can leverage their numbers.

So Latin America is at war with the US? And the Russian migration to Crimea is just a "war" technique carried on from Tsar Nicolas to Putin over the course of 150 years and multiple revolutions. How much clearer do I see these things now.

Oh wait, you're using a nonsensical argument to explain migratory patterns.

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#74

Post by iaskwhy »

hepek wrote: post #54
kievins wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing happened in Georgia in 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#The_South_Oss...

Same thing happened in Serbia in 1999. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo Only in this case it was NATO who invaded, and it is viewed quite differently from the western media then what parents have cited. The worst thing in world today is to become the rope on which the imperial forces tug to prove their strength.

Kosovo seems a much better example although I don't understand why NATO was able to enter the war against the wishes of Russia. Maybe nothing major happened because Serbia was sort of a Russian puppet state instead of being Russia itself? Or the lack of interesting resources in Kosovo? I have some remembering to do.

By the way, while reading about Kosovo's history yesterday, I noticed how beautiful Pristina's National Public Library looked: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Biblotek...

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#75

Post by lmg643 »

From what I gather, Obama has some of the same foreign policy advisors as Bush did. We are pursuing some backdoor strategy to get Ukraine to join the EU. The democratically elected president chose to ally with Russia instead, because Russia offered them more. We set up riots over there, and he flees the capital.

The leader is declared to be deposed, and now a leader friendly to the west can take over. Russia can't stand for this - they have military bases in the country, and it is literally in their backyard. In terms of distance to moscow, it would be like taking over north carolina to washington DC.

Question is - who is the aggressor in this situation, really? How is some unelected foreign policy team, fighting some bullshit game over expanding the EU, able to get us into this kind of mess?

I thought Obama was supposed to be the anti-imperialist replacement for Bush? Or is each new president just a toady of the people who really run the show?

I've got no stomach for war. We've done enough damage to ourselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. Please Obama, live up to what you were elected for - make that nobel peace prize count for something.

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#76

Post by vonmoltke »

ck2 wrote: post #24

The scariest part of all of this is the 6000 mystery troops that showed up without any logos on their uniforms or carriers or tanks. They took over the border, airport, etc. without any identification, simply guns to insist "do as we say". They even blocked the coast guard from leaving their ports. Which means they had this kind of force all prepared. Can you imagine if US troops showed up somewhere in huge numbers w…

They are not Russian troops. They are Russian private contractors: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/28/exclusive-r...

Also, there are only several hundred of them. The 6,000 you are referring to are troops the Russians brought in yesterday. These troops are not appearing "with all identification hidden".

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#77

Post by gk1 »

smsm42 wrote: post #71
gk1 wrote: post #17

See what happened in Ukraine's neighboring country, Moldova, 24 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Transnistria Moldova had a population of ethnic Russians that lived on the Eastern bank of the river D'niest'r. (Similar to the Crimean region in Ukraine.) Eventually a civil war broke out, and Russia stepped in to back the ethnically Russian region (sound familiar?). The end result was a stalemate. A ceasef…

That would actually an optimistic scenario. More pessimistic one would be if you notice Putin got approval to use Russian military in Ukraine, not just in Crimea. Which means he can also use it it Kharkov, Donetsk, Lugansk and other places where there is a majority Russian population. And try to split Ukraine along language-ethnic lines and destroy it as an independent state as a punishment for defying them. Note tha…

I agree. I meant to suggest that the whole eastern half would form a new country, not just the Crimea.

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#78

Post by smsm42 »

ck2 wrote: post #24

The scariest part of all of this is the 6000 mystery troops that showed up without any logos on their uniforms or carriers or tanks. They took over the border, airport, etc. without any identification, simply guns to insist "do as we say". They even blocked the coast guard from leaving their ports. Which means they had this kind of force all prepared. Can you imagine if US troops showed up somewhere in huge numbers w…

These forces are no mystery, they are obviously Russian troops. We do not know which branch of the military they belong to, but who cares? And Russia now moved to open military invasion, thus removing all doubt completely.

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#79

Post by visakanv »

lmg643 wrote: post #75

From what I gather, Obama has some of the same foreign policy advisors as Bush did. We are pursuing some backdoor strategy to get Ukraine to join the EU. The democratically elected president chose to ally with Russia instead, because Russia offered them more. We set up riots over there, and he flees the capital. The leader is declared to be deposed, and now a leader friendly to the west can take over. Russia can't st…

What exactly can Obama do, though? Anybody have any clear ideas?

Re: Russia approves use of military in Ukraine

#80

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

lmg643 wrote: post #75

From what I gather, Obama has some of the same foreign policy advisors as Bush did. We are pursuing some backdoor strategy to get Ukraine to join the EU. The democratically elected president chose to ally with Russia instead, because Russia offered them more. We set up riots over there, and he flees the capital. The leader is declared to be deposed, and now a leader friendly to the west can take over. Russia can't st…

Citation needed. Name those advisors. Every country in teh world recognizes Crimea as being Ukraine. Russia has just announced its invading that.
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