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Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

theaviationist.com

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Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#21

Post by Someone »

spindritf wrote: post #10
sentenza wrote: post #7

This is one major advantage of the EU. Not everybody needs to prepare for every eventuality, since their neighbors have their back. Articles like this are helpful now, because the Swiss (well at least some of them), seem to have forgotten what benefits their close cooperation with the EU brings.

Switzerland is neither in the EU, nor in the NATO.

That's what "the Swiss [...] seem to have forgotten what benefits their close cooperation with the EU brings" refers to (in combination with the recent Swiss vote to limit immigration from the EU)

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#22

Post by ctdonath »

cafard wrote: post #20
ctdonath wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland hasn't been invited for 800 years precisely because it does have a considerable army (to wit: every able-bodied male), not for want of would-be conquerors. A famous exchange between German and Swiss military leaders: "We have 400,000 troops ready to invade. You have but 200,000 civilian militia. What will your people do when ours arrive?" "Shoot twice and go home." No invasion.

Then how did the Helvetic Republic come about? During the wars of the French revolution it had pitched battles fought on its territory by outside forces (some of which had Swiss regiments on payroll, if not on the battlefield). Foreign powers moved large military forces through Swiss territory for many centuries.

I stand corrected. For 5 years, France attempted to instill a puppet government over the otherwise loosely aligned Swiss cantons. The attempt failed 211 years ago.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#23

Post by ctdonath »

hangonhn wrote: post #13
ctdonath wrote: post #9

There may also just be a cultural difference. Dramatic & tragic as it is, a hijacked commercial plane is not an existential threat to a nation. "9/11" aside, most hijackings are resolved peacefully as fuel runs out and perpetrators discover surrender is the only survivable option. Viewed as a police problem and not a military concern, I can see those in charge deciding it wasn't worth pouring enormous resources into…

They sent fighters up to escort it. I don't think their response has been any different than the US. Pre-9/11 that wouldn't have been the case. 9/11 affected the whole world. 9/11 is not considered an existential threat to the US. No one believes al Qaeda or any terrorist group has that kind of power. However, they are capable of a lot of tragedies. Sending fighters up is part of a calculus that we will rather take t…

The point of this thread is they didn't send fighters up to escort it. They welcomed other countries doing so, but being outside office hours they were not inclined to scramble jets themselves.

I didn't say 9/11 was an existential threat. Knowing it would be used as an objection for my lack of encyclopedic completeness, I exempted it from the observation that most hijackings end peacefully. As for your "calculus", the only thing they can do is aggressively assure the hijackers don't turn it into a 9/11-style attack; shooting down a loaded airbus is not preferable to closing most airstrip options and letting lack of fuel force a landing where subsequent takeoff cannot happen.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#24

Post by jmnicolas »

mpclark wrote: post #6
jmnicolas wrote: post #2

This is stupid Swiss bashing : Switzerland is such a little country surrounded by peaceful neighbors that they don't need to maintain a costly air-force in peace times. I think they have agreements with France to cover their air space and probably Italy too judging by the article.

I don't see this as bashing -- it's incredibly civilised and rational, and a sign of a country that is relaxed about its position in the world. If only we were all like that.

English is not my mother tongue maybe I was unclear : the bashing was from the journalist ;-)

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#25

Post by cafard »

ctdonath wrote: post #22
cafard wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how did the Helvetic Republic come about? During the wars of the French revolution it had pitched battles fought on its territory by outside forces (some of which had Swiss regiments on payroll, if not on the battlefield). Foreign powers moved large military forces through Swiss territory for many centuries.

I stand corrected. For 5 years, France attempted to instill a puppet government over the otherwise loosely aligned Swiss cantons. The attempt failed 211 years ago.

Indeed, I was quibbling, and I do think that the Swiss system is excellent.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#26

Post by hangonhn »

ctdonath wrote: post #23
hangonhn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sent fighters up to escort it. I don't think their response has been any different than the US. Pre-9/11 that wouldn't have been the case. 9/11 affected the whole world. 9/11 is not considered an existential threat to the US. No one believes al Qaeda or any terrorist group has that kind of power. However, they are capable of a lot of tragedies. Sending fighters up is part of a calculus that we will rather take t…

The point of this thread is they didn't send fighters up to escort it. They welcomed other countries doing so, but being outside office hours they were not inclined to scramble jets themselves. I didn't say 9/11 was an existential threat. Knowing it would be used as an objection for my lack of encyclopedic completeness, I exempted it from the observation that most hijackings end peacefully. As for your "calculus", th…

The plane was already escorted by fighters from friendly nations. So long as the Swiss trust that the Italians and French are competent, why bother. That has little to do with 9/11.

Shooting down a loaded Airbus is definitely not preferable and the US has never done that. The right action is as you said to escort it to prevent a 9/11 type attack. In similar situations, the US has done precisely that. The US has escorted jets down.

I don't see how the actions of the Swiss is really all that different from anyone else. The current norm of escorting hijacked airlines with fighters seems appropriate. The only difference here is that the Swiss was willing to rely on the military of friendly nations to do it. It would be a whole other matter if the Swiss told the French to turn back and let the airliner land unescorted.

Are we talking past each other? Or maybe I'm not appreciating the differences you're trying to point out. I'm wary of any attributions to culture, etc. Most of what happened was fairly procedural.

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