Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work • Hacker News Board

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#11

Post by hangonhn » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:04 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #7

This is one major advantage of the EU. Not everybody needs to prepare for every eventuality, since their neighbors have their back. Articles like this are helpful now, because the Swiss (well at least some of them), seem to have forgotten what benefits their close cooperation with the EU brings.

That's a bit of a jump I think...

Had it been Canada and the US, I'm sure they would have done the same for each other and they're not part of any union.

I don't think we can make generalizations like this because while EU is good for some things, it has also been devastating for other things like the disparity in economies in Germany vs Spain, Italy, Greece.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#12

Post by gsnedders » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:05 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #8

joi_degn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you may be right about this being "stupid Swiss bashing", the swiss do have a considerable army for such a small country which they should not have to maintain either.

Switzerland hasn't been invited for 800 years precisely because it does have a considerable army (to wit: every able-bodied male), not for want of would-be conquerors. A famous exchange between German and Swiss military leaders: "We have 400,000 troops ready to invade. You have but 200,000 civilian militia. What will your people do when ours arrive?" "Shoot twice and go home." No invasion.

And being a civilian militia has a number of advantage: one cannot simply bomb a few military bases and decimate their military strength.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#13

Post by hangonhn » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:08 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #9

There may also just be a cultural difference. Dramatic & tragic as it is, a hijacked commercial plane is not an existential threat to a nation. "9/11" aside, most hijackings are resolved peacefully as fuel runs out and perpetrators discover surrender is the only survivable option. Viewed as a police problem and not a military concern, I can see those in charge deciding it wasn't worth pouring enormous resources into…

They sent fighters up to escort it. I don't think their response has been any different than the US. Pre-9/11 that wouldn't have been the case. 9/11 affected the whole world.

9/11 is not considered an existential threat to the US. No one believes al Qaeda or any terrorist group has that kind of power. However, they are capable of a lot of tragedies. Sending fighters up is part of a calculus that we will rather take the lost of a smaller group of people over a larger group. I don't think it's reasonable to draw a larger conclusion than that.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#14

Post by kaybe » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:08 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #8

joi_degn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you may be right about this being "stupid Swiss bashing", the swiss do have a considerable army for such a small country which they should not have to maintain either.

Switzerland hasn't been invited for 800 years precisely because it does have a considerable army (to wit: every able-bodied male), not for want of would-be conquerors. A famous exchange between German and Swiss military leaders: "We have 400,000 troops ready to invade. You have but 200,000 civilian militia. What will your people do when ours arrive?" "Shoot twice and go home." No invasion.

Also, the terrain is notoriously difficult, the bridges have predetermined break points and places to put the dynamite (none there atm, but not so long ago there was), and any old shed in the mountain could contain a bunker or hangar. Apart from Israel, Switzerland is the only country with enough bunkers for the whole population (even ABC rated I think).

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#15

Post by rikacomet » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:11 PM UTC

This is kinda symbolic, of the fact that why Switzerland is the venue of most major peace summits, various UN offices, and what not.

Additionally, probably people are thinking that Switzerland should have 2, only two aircraft at least for such emergencies of civil nature, which is viable. It would be better than relying on others since its possible that there can be major problems on a coordination level in case of civil emergency in future. Though it seems unlikely this time around, it could be a problem in future, if Swiss culture and of its neighbors grow in different direction (even if not hostile).

Someone sitting somewhere can say in that case, "umm.. should I take help from country X or Country Y.. who should have operational command? "

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#16

Post by tptacek » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #7

This is one major advantage of the EU. Not everybody needs to prepare for every eventuality, since their neighbors have their back. Articles like this are helpful now, because the Swiss (well at least some of them), seem to have forgotten what benefits their close cooperation with the EU brings.

Their neighbors have their back, but the reality is that they're all drafting off the US military spend.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#17

Post by ck2 » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:20 PM UTC

I thought the new line of thinking was that if the passengers don't stop the hijackers it is basically game over.

According to a poster on reddit, the way the copilot controlled the passengers was to turn off oxygen in the cabin.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#18

Post by jleyank » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:31 PM UTC

hangonhn wrote: post #11

sentenza wrote: post #7

This is one major advantage of the EU. Not everybody needs to prepare for every eventuality, since their neighbors have their back. Articles like this are helpful now, because the Swiss (well at least some of them), seem to have forgotten what benefits their close cooperation with the EU brings.

That's a bit of a jump I think... Had it been Canada and the US, I'm sure they would have done the same for each other and they're not part of any union. I don't think we can make generalizations like this because while EU is good for some things, it has also been devastating for other things like the disparity in economies in Germany vs Spain, Italy, Greece.

I have no clue how European air defense works, but I thought US and Canada have been part of Norad since the bad old days? Thus, while they're not part of a union (as far as I can tell), they share military duties in some areas.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#19

Post by hangonhn » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 5:57 PM UTC

jleyank wrote: post #18

hangonhn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit of a jump I think... Had it been Canada and the US, I'm sure they would have done the same for each other and they're not part of any union. I don't think we can make generalizations like this because while EU is good for some things, it has also been devastating for other things like the disparity in economies in Germany vs Spain, Italy, Greece.

I have no clue how European air defense works, but I thought US and Canada have been part of Norad since the bad old days? Thus, while they're not part of a union (as far as I can tell), they share military duties in some areas.

I might have used a poor example but I think most countries on good terms with their neighbors would help each other out in an emergency without them being part of any formal union.

Re: Italian and French jets escorted hijacked plane because Swiss AF was off work

#20

Post by cafard » Tue, Feb 18, 2014, 6:15 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #8

joi_degn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you may be right about this being "stupid Swiss bashing", the swiss do have a considerable army for such a small country which they should not have to maintain either.

Switzerland hasn't been invited for 800 years precisely because it does have a considerable army (to wit: every able-bodied male), not for want of would-be conquerors. A famous exchange between German and Swiss military leaders: "We have 400,000 troops ready to invade. You have but 200,000 civilian militia. What will your people do when ours arrive?" "Shoot twice and go home." No invasion.

Then how did the Helvetic Republic come about? During the wars of the French revolution it had pitched battles fought on its territory by outside forces (some of which had Swiss regiments on payroll, if not on the battlefield). Foreign powers moved large military forces through Swiss territory for many centuries.