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The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

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Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#31

Post by ericHosick »

chrismcb wrote: post #13
ericHosick wrote: post #4

I think it is important to distinguish between the two. It is possible to program a computer without coding. Currently, the tools to do this are very domain specific. I think, in the future, there will be domain agnostic development tools that will let people program software without the need to write code.

coding is a synonym for programming. No need to distinguish the two. If you can program you can code, if you can code you can program. Talking about software design or architecture is something different.

> If you can program you can code, if you can code you can program.

If you consider people who use scratch (http://scratch.mit.edu/) as coders, then I would agree with you.

But, to me, it doesn't look like they are coding. It looks like programming using something other than coding.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#33

Post by btilly »

dschiptsov wrote: post #28
btilly wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way). If you truly believe that, and believe that people can be so divided, then I suggest that you read https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/dfydM2Cnepe and discover that for all you think you understand about how things work and why, there are things you just use. Indeed I can…

I sense lack of familiarity with suggested readings, so I doubt that "otherwise intelligent people" stuff. Hint: the distinction is not between so-called technologist and non-technologist, not even between engineering and liberal arts education, so the link is irrelevant. If one choosed to be a software engineer, note the word "engineer" one have to have understanding of underlying principles, general ideas upon whic…

Actually I have read the suggested readings. I still think the world view that you have on this is a poor match for reality.

Just because someone writes something flowery and nice doesn't mean that they are right, or that their distinctions are a useful way to understand the world.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#34

Post by btilly »

benbot wrote: post #29
btilly wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way). If you truly believe that, and believe that people can be so divided, then I suggest that you read https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/dfydM2Cnepe and discover that for all you think you understand about how things work and why, there are things you just use. Indeed I can…

As a polymath, your linked post was hardly enlightening. Additionally, the repeated line "no single company can deal with that entire complexity" is misleading. I can provide examples of companies that deal extensively with most if not all aspects of each individual layer presented. The truth, though, is that thinking about all the layers together can and likely will make most people dizzy. As for companies? I would…

My point in the linked post was to show for one common technology how no individual person can really understand it. At some point we have to switch from understanding to just using.

That said, there is no company that does deal with each layer in all complexity. Even IBM outsources. But the reason does not have to do with it being too complex as much as too standardized.

The economic theory of the firm says that firms divide when the internal stupidity of a large firm exceeds transaction costs between several. But as an area standardizes, stupidity remains unchanged and transaction costs reduce - meaning that you get more smaller firms. There is an excellent chart that I think I saw in The Innovator's Solution which shows the resulting fragmentation of the semi-conductor industry over the decades.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#35

Post by dschiptsov »

btilly wrote: post #33
dschiptsov wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sense lack of familiarity with suggested readings, so I doubt that "otherwise intelligent people" stuff. Hint: the distinction is not between so-called technologist and non-technologist, not even between engineering and liberal arts education, so the link is irrelevant. If one choosed to be a software engineer, note the word "engineer" one have to have understanding of underlying principles, general ideas upon whic…

Actually I have read the suggested readings. I still think the world view that you have on this is a poor match for reality. Just because someone writes something flowery and nice doesn't mean that they are right, or that their distinctions are a useful way to understand the world.

Of course! It is up to a reader to decide what is right and wrong, good book are just beautiful artistic artifacts, much like some violin concerts or very few painting. Sorry for too banal sentiments.)

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#36

Post by btilly »

dschiptsov wrote: post #35
btilly wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I have read the suggested readings. I still think the world view that you have on this is a poor match for reality. Just because someone writes something flowery and nice doesn't mean that they are right, or that their distinctions are a useful way to understand the world.

Of course! It is up to a reader to decide what is right and wrong, good book are just beautiful artistic artifacts, much like some violin concerts or very few painting. Sorry for too banal sentiments.)

Here is a fun exercise for you.

Take professionals around you who seem uninterested in what you care about. Assume that they are interested in something that they can teach you. Find out what it might be. Learn it from them.

If you're like me, you'll quickly find that the mapper/packer dichotomy only served as a fancy intellectual justification for flipping the bozo bit on people whose curiosity about the world happened to be about things other than what you paid attention to. You might also learn something interesting about anything from negotiation to accounting to local laws.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#37

Post by dschiptsov »

btilly wrote: post #36
dschiptsov wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course! It is up to a reader to decide what is right and wrong, good book are just beautiful artistic artifacts, much like some violin concerts or very few painting. Sorry for too banal sentiments.)

Here is a fun exercise for you. Take professionals around you who seem uninterested in what you care about. Assume that they are interested in something that they can teach you. Find out what it might be. Learn it from them. If you're like me, you'll quickly find that the mapper/packer dichotomy only served as a fancy intellectual justification for flipping the bozo bit on people whose curiosity about the world happe…

It is murderously hard to find a real, no-nonsense competence. Usually all you got are narcissistic types like patio11 and talking heads.

I studying good old CS books and AIMs or watching some online courses this way.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#38

Post by cafard »

zedshaw wrote: post #18
longtimeranon wrote: post #16

With the media coverage of code.org, Leo the Homeless Coder, and the code schools and bootcamps springing up everywhere, the message the general public is getting is that whatever "coding" is and whatever "coders" do doesn't really take a whole lot of skill or effort. If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k? Either coders=programmers and we should expect increasi…

No, this isn't really the case. What I see, as the guy who wrote the book that tells people that learning to code is hard but possible , what people are realizing is that programming is hard, but possible. Programmers are simply confusing the fact that people are attempting to learn it and succeeding in greater numbers than before with the idea that all these new entrants all think it's easy. The truth is I see them…

Indeed. A little out of reach from where is sit is Jon Bentley's More Programming Pearls: Confessions of a Coder. Bentley certainly did not take it as derogatory term.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#39

Post by btilly »

dschiptsov wrote: post #37
btilly wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a fun exercise for you. Take professionals around you who seem uninterested in what you care about. Assume that they are interested in something that they can teach you. Find out what it might be. Learn it from them. If you're like me, you'll quickly find that the mapper/packer dichotomy only served as a fancy intellectual justification for flipping the bozo bit on people whose curiosity about the world happe…

It is murderously hard to find a real, no-nonsense competence. Usually all you got are narcissistic types like patio11 and talking heads. I studying good old CS books and AIMs or watching some online courses this way.

It really looks to me like you flip the bozo bit where you shouldn't. It is really hard to find a person whose interests and competence match that which you are interested in. But it is easy to find someone you can learn useful stuff from whose interests don't so align.

Don't believe me? Consider Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance for a second. The main character of that book is mechanically inclined. But are you? Could you, for instance, explain how a simple mechanical device like a differential works? Probably not. Therefore in some sense you fail to be the kind of person that Prisig was describing. Not because you lack interest, but because your interest is in a different area.

(BTW if you're curious, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYAw79386WI has an excellent explanation of how a differential works.)

When you start doing this, you may find something interesting. You'll notice that people like tptacek, whose actual skills should properly impress you, have great respect for people like patio11. Why? Because tptacek recognizes what patio11 is better at than he is, and can respect patio11 for that, at the same time as patio11 is very clear on what he is and isn't good at.

So what is patio11 good at? It is very simple. He's good at figuring out how tech people can market themselves. This may not be a skill you care about. Not one you wish to learn. But one that tptacek sees value in.

And that is how life goes. We each specialize. Some things we choose to learn. Other things we need to know who is good so we can know who to go to to do it. And the whole is bigger than the sum of the parts.

Just make the transition from looking down on people who choose to be good at things you don't, to accepting and respecting them for what they are. You may be surprised at how much of your life smooths out.

Or you can choose to sit in your little corner, on top of your mountain of specialized knowledge, sneering at the world to make up for the fact that others don't respect you in the way you think you deserve to be respected. And then wonder why people don't enjoy being around you.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#40

Post by dschiptsov »

btilly wrote: post #39
dschiptsov wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is murderously hard to find a real, no-nonsense competence. Usually all you got are narcissistic types like patio11 and talking heads. I studying good old CS books and AIMs or watching some online courses this way.

It really looks to me like you flip the bozo bit where you shouldn't. It is really hard to find a person whose interests and competence match that which you are interested in. But it is easy to find someone you can learn useful stuff from whose interests don't so align. Don't believe me? Consider Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance for a second. The main character of that book is mechanically inclined. But are…

The main character of the book is not mechanically inclined, he is inclined, so to speak, with necessity to understand and explain, to find out the meaning of things and phenomena he observed. The quest for the Truth (only to find Quality instead, or a "perfect" Balance as it called on the East) is a state of mind, which is roughly a mix of curiosity, logical reasoning, imagination and persistence. Some call such set of traits the scientific mind, and some call it our Buddha nature. The book is about minds, not motorcycles.

As for attitude towards other people, it is really difficult problem, because lots of our attitudes are based on social conditioning and effects of environment which heavily influences what experience we had and most importantly how do we interpret and consolidate them, a bunch of feedback loops between different "agencies" of the brain.

In other words, culturally I am lower class Russian, which means I am treating other people in a different way you do. For me, for example, so called respect never to be taken for granted, but to be earned or to be a consequence of other person actions. So called "cultures of honor" are too much concerned with how others behave, it is silly, but it is what we are.

So, I do respect guys like Hickey or rtm or antirez (there are few more) because not only I could appreciate what they have done, but I know what it takes to be able to perform like that. It is like a person could really have a respect for those who is capable to run 15km non-stop only when he himself could run at least 10. Then you know what it takes.

So I cannot respect any talking heads or so called consultants simply because I know what it takes. Not very much.

Another example is books. As long as you progress as a reader you possibly could realize how very very few really good books are here (it is not a matter of popularity or cover annotations, of course) and the general amount of nonsense around you.

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