The difference is hubris.
The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
11–20 of 41 posts
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#12I think it is important to distinguish between the two. It is possible to program a computer without coding. Currently, the tools to do this are very domain specific. I think, in the future, there will be domain agnostic development tools that will let people program software without the need to write code.
Why do you think that it's important to distinguish between the two? The fact that it sometimes possible to program a computer without coding does not relay the "importance" of distinguishing, since it's not done on a regular basis and usually is called "configuring", or "defining workflow" but not "programming".
> Why do you think that it's important to distinguish between the two?
It is important because programming doesn't always involve coding.
It is important because language can limit or expand our thinking and definitions play a role in that.
I think it is important to strive for moving away from coding as the primary means of programming a computer so we can democratize software development. So, we should not redefine the definition of programming to be "coding a computer".
> since it's not done on a regular basis
I don't think this is a very good litmus test.
> usually is called "configuring", or "defining workflow" but not "programming"
We used to say "program a VCR".
The word is even defined as "the action or process of writing computer programs." There is no mention of coding as being a required aspect of the programming process.
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#13I think it is important to distinguish between the two. It is possible to program a computer without coding. Currently, the tools to do this are very domain specific. I think, in the future, there will be domain agnostic development tools that will let people program software without the need to write code.
coding is a synonym for programming. No need to distinguish the two. If you can program you can code, if you can code you can program. Talking about software design or architecture is something different.
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#14Oh, come on.) btw, the first chapter of The Programmers Stone explained almost everything about two decades(?) ago. All this could be summarized in one sentence: Programmer is a writer, like Orhan Pamuk, coder is a translator from Turkish. Or, according to the classic - programmers are "mappers", they are inveting abstractions. Coders are "packers", they are writing piles of Java classes for a paycheck. Even simpler.…
I remember The Programmer's Stone.
It fell into that dubious genre of essays that draws a false dichotomy that there is no particular reason to believe is real, then puts all of the positive characteristics on one side, so that readers have a new label to apply to themselves so that they feel good, and a corresponding label to apply to everyone they don't like.
I wasn't impressed by that addition to the genre at the time, and I've seen nothing since to make me think that I should have been.
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#15Oh, come on.) btw, the first chapter of The Programmers Stone explained almost everything about two decades(?) ago. All this could be summarized in one sentence: Programmer is a writer, like Orhan Pamuk, coder is a translator from Turkish. Or, according to the classic - programmers are "mappers", they are inveting abstractions. Coders are "packers", they are writing piles of Java classes for a paycheck. Even simpler.…
Lengthening "code" to "encode" then coding is "encoding something". What you mention as the next level is being able to distinctly invent things worth encoding.
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#16With the media coverage of code.org, Leo the Homeless Coder, and the code schools and bootcamps springing up everywhere, the message the general public is getting is that whatever "coding" is and whatever "coders" do doesn't really take a whole lot of skill or effort. If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k?
Either coders=programmers and we should expect increasing competition and decreasing wages, or self-described programmers need to somehow distinguish themselves from the unskilled "coder" masses.
Yet in these very comments, every response I've seen is essentially endorsing the "coding is easy and anyone can do it" message.
It's strange to see so many otherwise intelligent people advocating for their own marginalization. Doctors would never say things like "everyone should learn medicine" or "anyone can be a doctor." Instead they erect barriers to entry to eliminate competition and force you to pay for their services, driving up the cost of health care, and the stupid general public loves them for it.
What is wrong with programmers? Are we simply too egalitarian for our own good?
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#17Oh, come on.) btw, the first chapter of The Programmers Stone explained almost everything about two decades(?) ago. All this could be summarized in one sentence: Programmer is a writer, like Orhan Pamuk, coder is a translator from Turkish. Or, according to the classic - programmers are "mappers", they are inveting abstractions. Coders are "packers", they are writing piles of Java classes for a paycheck. Even simpler.…
I remember The Programmer's Stone. It fell into that dubious genre of essays that draws a false dichotomy that there is no particular reason to believe is real, then puts all of the positive characteristics on one side, so that readers have a new label to apply to themselves so that they feel good, and a corresponding label to apply to everyone they don't like. I wasn't impressed by that addition to the genre at the…
I think that you somehow did an analysis of writing style instead of the meaning. The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way). I suggest you to read Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, it is about exactly the same segregation, but in a much more poetical wording. And then at least a half of Atlas Shrugged, to complete enlightenment.)
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#18With the media coverage of code.org, Leo the Homeless Coder, and the code schools and bootcamps springing up everywhere, the message the general public is getting is that whatever "coding" is and whatever "coders" do doesn't really take a whole lot of skill or effort. If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k? Either coders=programmers and we should expect increasi…
No, this isn't really the case. What I see, as the guy who wrote the book that tells people that learning to code is hard but possible, what people are realizing is that programming is hard, but possible.
Programmers are simply confusing the fact that people are attempting to learn it and succeeding in greater numbers than before with the idea that all these new entrants all think it's easy. The truth is I see them all say it's damn hard, but if they put the work in they can learn it.
Another thing they realize after getting through my book is just how long it'll take to get good. They don't take what they've learned lightly, and they don't think it was trivial to learn. What this ends up doing is giving everyone who attempted it a healthy dose of respect for what we do.
I'm a coder. I've been a coder a huge chunk of my life. This attempt to label "coder" as some kind of idiot is really pissing me off, especially when I see it coming from programmers who don't realize that more people learning an introduction to code means more people will appreciate and understand what they do.
Now, the site is down so I haven't read the article, so take my comment as only replying to what you said, not the article.
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#19With the media coverage of code.org, Leo the Homeless Coder, and the code schools and bootcamps springing up everywhere, the message the general public is getting is that whatever "coding" is and whatever "coders" do doesn't really take a whole lot of skill or effort. If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k? Either coders=programmers and we should expect increasi…
First, the terms don't mean different things, despite the authors intention to make it so.
Second, the idea he presents as coder is actually a basic operation done by programmers at many different levels. A good analogy would be to liken it to a carpenter hammering nails. A good carpenter might spend many hours planning a project on paper, but at some point someone has to hammer the nails. It might be him, it might be an apprentice (read: junior programmer).
Finally, I may be reading the comments in a different light than you, but I don't think anyone is using this forum to claim that programming, or even "coding", is an easy task. It is a skill that takes training and practice. As you get more skilled, you might find yourself doing less of the implementation or not, depending on your career. However, it is exactly that experience and increased skill that warrants the high salary.
You wouldn't pay an apprentice carpenter a lot of money for those cabinets, but for a master...
Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)
#20With the media coverage of code.org, Leo the Homeless Coder, and the code schools and bootcamps springing up everywhere, the message the general public is getting is that whatever "coding" is and whatever "coders" do doesn't really take a whole lot of skill or effort. If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k? Either coders=programmers and we should expect increasi…
If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k?
For certain values of do it.
Doctors would never say things like "everyone should learn medicine" or "anyone can be a doctor." Instead they erect barriers to entry to eliminate competition and force you to pay for their services, driving up the cost of health care, and the stupid general public loves them for it.
Doctors, like real Architects (i.e. not software or information ones!), and real Engineers, are a regulated and certified profession because when they make mistakes, someone dies, not because it is an economic advantage for them to be so. What you are describing is something more akin to the guilds system for craftsmen, which is not something I think you should aspire to or want to return to.
I imagine some part of software production will become codified and regulated in the same way in time - that part which deals with life or death situations or produces medical equipment for example. As software grows to eat the world this might start to encompass more of the profession, but probably there will always be a large area of software which just doesn't matter enough to be codified and regulated (I'd include in that most of the work that companies like Apple, Amazon, Google, and web startups do - advertising or most websites can lose money when they go down, but it doesn't risk lives). I'm sure you can think of a case where software risks lives, but the vast majority does not. So I don't think this comparison is helpful.
As to driving up the cost of healthcare, try comparing countries and you'll see costs are more related to the system of insurance and breadth of coverage than how much doctors are paid.
What is wrong with programmers? Are we simply too egalitarian for our own good?
Perhaps it is enlightened self-interest. The more people who know how useful software can be (if only in a small way), the more willing they will be to commission it. Monopolies of knowledge are easily undermined anyway, and why not try to improve the lives of others in a small way by encouraging them to automate filling in their spreadsheet or other daily tasks with a little scripting for example?
If you have sufficient experience or talent, lots of other people learning to code/program/engineer/whatever label you prefer should be the last of your concerns.