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The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

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Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#21

Post by m_mueller »

In German we use a different terminology for the whole field. It's called 'Informatik', as in the science of processing information. The people doing this are thus called 'Informatiker'. This alone helps, I feel, in making people understand that there is some degree of formal training behind it, that 'Informatiker' aren't just code monkeys. Granted, many still use the term Software Engineer today, simply because Engineer degrees have a higher entry barrier and thus have a better sound to them (you can get 'Informatiker' degrees without a higher education by doing an 3-4y apprenticeship at 16, a very common way of how education works in Germany and Switzerland).

In any case I think that the English speaking CS pioneers have failed to coin a good term for their field - CS just isn't right, especially regarding the English definition of 'Science'. It also leaves non-CS-degree holders who practice this job in a sort of vacuum about what to call themselves.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#22

Post by longtimeranon »

grey-area wrote: post #20
longtimeranon wrote: post #16

With the media coverage of code.org, Leo the Homeless Coder, and the code schools and bootcamps springing up everywhere, the message the general public is getting is that whatever "coding" is and whatever "coders" do doesn't really take a whole lot of skill or effort. If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k? Either coders=programmers and we should expect increasi…

If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k? For certain values of do it . Doctors would never say things like "everyone should learn medicine" or "anyone can be a doctor." Instead they erect barriers to entry to eliminate competition and force you to pay for their services, driving up the cost of health care, and the stupid general public loves them for it. Doctors,…

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about! Doctors in the US are the highest paid in the world because of protectionist laws that don't allow foreign doctors to practice (no H-1B competition), that prevent new medical schools from opening, and that make them the only legal source of many health services like prescriptions (in many states), and yet people like you continue to defend them:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/11/20/doctors_pay_u...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/01/13/w...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/02/19/nurse_practit...

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#23

Post by longtimeranon »

zedshaw wrote: post #18
longtimeranon wrote: post #16

With the media coverage of code.org, Leo the Homeless Coder, and the code schools and bootcamps springing up everywhere, the message the general public is getting is that whatever "coding" is and whatever "coders" do doesn't really take a whole lot of skill or effort. If anyone can apparently do it with a few weeks of training, why should they be paid $80-100+k? Either coders=programmers and we should expect increasi…

No, this isn't really the case. What I see, as the guy who wrote the book that tells people that learning to code is hard but possible , what people are realizing is that programming is hard, but possible. Programmers are simply confusing the fact that people are attempting to learn it and succeeding in greater numbers than before with the idea that all these new entrants all think it's easy. The truth is I see them…

> I'm a coder. I've been a coder a huge chunk of my life. This attempt to label "coder" as some kind of idiot is really pissing me off,

If you want to call yourself a coder, fine. However, there is still a difference between Linus Torvalds and someone who, for example, has at most hacked a few things together in JavaScript, and I think the terminology should reflect that in more ways than just "beginner" and "expert."

I also think calling ourselves "coders" and calling what we do "coding" isn't going to gain us the respect or prestige that terms like "software developer" or even "programmer" would. If you're happy being called a "coder," in the sense of "Zed Shaw is a great coder," that's fine, but personally, I'm not.

> Now, the site is down so I haven't read the article

It was down for me too. I was responding to the comments that seemed to take great offense at the apparently horrible, elitist idea that maybe, just maybe, it might be worthwhile to have a term that distinguishes professional developers from people who've done some exercises on code.org.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#24

Post by [deleted] »

m_mueller wrote: post #21

In German we use a different terminology for the whole field. It's called 'Informatik', as in the science of processing information. The people doing this are thus called 'Informatiker'. This alone helps, I feel, in making people understand that there is some degree of formal training behind it, that 'Informatiker' aren't just code monkeys. Granted, many still use the term Software Engineer today, simply because Engi…

[deleted]

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#25

Post by btilly »

dschiptsov wrote: post #17
btilly wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember The Programmer's Stone. It fell into that dubious genre of essays that draws a false dichotomy that there is no particular reason to believe is real, then puts all of the positive characteristics on one side, so that readers have a new label to apply to themselves so that they feel good, and a corresponding label to apply to everyone they don't like. I wasn't impressed by that addition to the genre at the…

I think that you somehow did an analysis of writing style instead of the meaning. The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way). I suggest you to read Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, it is about exactly the same segregation, but in a much more poetical wording. And then at least a half of Atlas Shrugged, to complete enlight…

The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way).

If you truly believe that, and believe that people can be so divided, then I suggest that you read https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/dfydM2Cnepe and discover that for all you think you understand about how things work and why, there are things you just use.

Indeed I can give you dozens of examples of important things that impact your life, ranging from the reason why fertilizer makes good high explosives to how airplane wings work, and you'll find that for all that you pat yourself on the back for being such an intelligent and curious person, you're far more someone who just uses that which you find around you than someone who understands your world.

If you can accept that, then you might get beyond your naive belief that you bring enlightenment that I have failed to grasp, and you may come to see why I think that the purported distinction is BS.

After that, you might realize why I became curious about how a theory that is so obviously BS would appeal to otherwise intelligent people. And then you might find my theory about it to be enlightening.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#28

Post by dschiptsov »

btilly wrote: post #25
dschiptsov wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that you somehow did an analysis of writing style instead of the meaning. The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way). I suggest you to read Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, it is about exactly the same segregation, but in a much more poetical wording. And then at least a half of Atlas Shrugged, to complete enlight…

The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way). If you truly believe that, and believe that people can be so divided, then I suggest that you read https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/dfydM2Cnepe and discover that for all you think you understand about how things work and why, there are things you just use. Indeed I can…

I sense lack of familiarity with suggested readings, so I doubt that "otherwise intelligent people" stuff.

Hint: the distinction is not between so-called technologist and non-technologist, not even between engineering and liberal arts education, so the link is irrelevant.

If one choosed to be a software engineer, note the word "engineer" one have to have understanding of underlying principles, general ideas upon which design of this or that component is based, and implementation strategy which was used. One cannot just ignore complexity and treat everything as black boxes and someone else problems. But so many do. This is the distinction.

You you got a motorcycle you better have to understand how it works and why important design decision has been made, based on what line of reasoning. Then you will be able to have real confidence, based on understanding, not that anxious one which is based on a belief and hope. With this you will be able to do maintenance, fix problems, and complete your journey, instead of praying that nothing will go wrong. It is that simple.

Lots of people are very comfortable with beliefs and hope instead of knowing the details. They emphasize the "getting shit done" approach and usually become quite irritated when asked questions beginning with words "why" or "how". We call them "packers".

You better read the books.

Btw, when MIT guys like Abelson and Sussman are saying "ignore everything below this level of abstraction" or "use the black box abstraction" they doesn't mean being ignorant and literally having no idea what's going on down below. They do have understanding of CS theory, EE and Physics. So no, no country for ignorant.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#29

Post by benbot »

btilly wrote: post #25
dschiptsov wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that you somehow did an analysis of writing style instead of the meaning. The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way). I suggest you to read Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, it is about exactly the same segregation, but in a much more poetical wording. And then at least a half of Atlas Shrugged, to complete enlight…

The distinction is quite simple, some people are interested in how things work and why, others just use them (usually in a wrong way). If you truly believe that, and believe that people can be so divided, then I suggest that you read https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/dfydM2Cnepe and discover that for all you think you understand about how things work and why, there are things you just use. Indeed I can…

As a polymath, your linked post was hardly enlightening.

Additionally, the repeated line "no single company can deal with that entire complexity" is misleading. I can provide examples of companies that deal extensively with most if not all aspects of each individual layer presented.

The truth, though, is that thinking about all the layers together can and likely will make most people dizzy. As for companies? I would propose that a hypothetical company, let's name them "IBM" for convenience, could theoretically deal with each and every layer presented, and I'd estimate they could do so successfully for 50 years or more.

Re: The Difference Between Programmers and Coders (2013)

#30

Post by ggchappell »

m_mueller wrote: post #21

In German we use a different terminology for the whole field. It's called 'Informatik', as in the science of processing information. The people doing this are thus called 'Informatiker'. This alone helps, I feel, in making people understand that there is some degree of formal training behind it, that 'Informatiker' aren't just code monkeys. Granted, many still use the term Software Engineer today, simply because Engi…

> ... I think that the English speaking CS pioneers have failed to coin a good term for their field - CS just isn't right, especially regarding the English definition of 'Science'.

Definitely. And even the "Computer" part causes confusion. I'm a C.S. professor. The man on the street thinks I teach people to use MS Word. Alas, so do many textbook publisher reps, along with the occasional prospective student.

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